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Cleveland to keep Baker

Discussion in 'General NFL Talk' started by Blast Furnace, Jan 9, 2022.

  1. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Good news :lolol:
     
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  2. Thor

    Thor

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    For Progressive as well. The At Home With... ads won't have to be pulled just yet.
     
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  3. Jammasterc

    Jammasterc Well-Known Member

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    Then they should trade down.

    Unless they want a QB that could possibly be a replacement in a year.
     
  4. Steel_Elvis

    Steel_Elvis Staff Member Mod Team

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    They should do an “at home with” ad where Big Ben evicts Baker.
     
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  5. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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  6. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    Meh. Browns are a .500 team with Baker. If they build from the trenches out they can improve.

    The Browns ownership is unstable. Teams need a happy medium between fire a coach every two years and tolerate a decade of mediocrity.
     
  7. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    :hmm:


    A fully healthy Browns Offensive Line is one of the best in all of football. A fully healthy Browns Defensive Line is one of the best in all of football. The Browns Roster, as a whole, is not the issue here. As you said yourself... Baker is.



    In today's league, a team better have a Patrick Mahomes or even a Joe Burrow level QB to think about competing for the biggest of the big dances. For that matter, even a QB as hobbled as 2021 Big Ben is proves that you need an above average QB just to reach the playoffs. Sadly, not having an above average QB essentially makes it all the more difficult for a team to reach the playoffs



    If anything, here is a great example of why me and others wanted the Browns to extend Baker...








    A team cannot get into the playoffs when their QB is consistently placing them in unwinnable situations. Baker consistently has. Regarding even someone like Big Ben, yes, he simply is not what he once was. That said, he has shown that he can find a way to games in the most critical moments this season; namely the previous two games. Baker has yet to show that at a consistent level; very damning as he is the number one overall pick.



    In short? Baker is what he is; average and nothing special. Continually relying on him may get you into the playoffs.... but how often is a more fair question.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
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  8. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    This is 2 parts in terms of player personnel. A) The need for a franchise QB and B) the need for a supporting cast:

    A) I agree with you. Personally I feel that a franchise QB + elite defense = Super Bowl contender. I would define franchise QB as top 10 and agree Baker is not being a franchise QB by that definition. I feel Baker falls just outside that definition and is an average QB. So we are in agreement.

    B) The elite defense part. The Browns have not had a top 10 defense since 2011. None of those players are left. I do not agree that they have incredible talent as football pundits like to claim. This year they were 5th in yards allowed but 13th in points allowed. An argument can be made that the Browns have a top 10 defense just Baker put them in bad spots which is fine but I still see them as an above average defense at best.

    You're right that elite QBs cover up most of the problems on offense and that the Browns will not contend without one; but you are forgetting this is the Browns.

    The Titans are the number one seed with Ryan Tannehill playing badly and the team having suffered many injuries. That's the kind of team I was thinking of as overachieving despite QB play. I think the Browns could be capable of that with a better coaching staff.

    The problem is pretty clearly Haslam not Baker. Which of Baker's head coaches would you want Hue Jackson, Gregg Williams, Freddie Kitchens or Kevin Stefanski? I guess Stefanski but Stefanski should have been shot for being held under 100 rushing yards by the Steelers run defense. "We are running for 150 yards per game rushing; they are allowing 150 yards per game rushing. I know! I'll throw it with our disgruntled QB who is playing like trash!"

    My point is that by getting rid of Baker the Browns will almost certainly get worse not better. The last average QB they had was Derek Anderson. I would prefer the Browns get rid of Baker and give us two free wins a year like they used to. This is the first year the Steelers swept the Browns since 2017.
     
  9. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    As you said, if Baker is placing his team in unwinnable situations then everyone suffers because of it; Defense included. For that matter, can you imagine if Baker takes care of the football a lot more for his team? Those Defensive Rankings would be a lot higher for certain.


    Regarding Ryan Tannehill... he is an above average QB... with a catch. He does not turn the ball over nearly as often as Baker does. Per Pro Football Reference, since joining the Titans, Ryan Tannehill has thrown 76 TDs to 27 INTs. Granted, he also has fumbled the ball on 21 occasions with the Titans as well. However, what is important here is the rate of turnovers Tannehill is currently replicating in comparison to Baker; a much lower figure here. In addition, as you said, Jimmy Haslam does the Browns no favors to begin with. However, when a QB has had four different Head Coaching changes in four consecutive seasons, one has to wonder whether or not Baker is the guy going forward; for me no.


    Finally, Kevin Stefanski did Cleveland little to no favors at all this season. However, keep in mind that this is a Head Coach that won NFL Coach of the Year a season ago. For me, it is too early to state that Kevin should be on the hot seat given how he has effectively brought back the Browns into relevancy again. If anything, their inability to run the football so effectively this season has a lot less to do with his play calling and more to do with his lack of trust in Baker overall. Again, for reference, Tennessee is going to run the ball no matter what Defense an opponent calls on them.... for a finite reason. Ryan has a lesser penchant of giving the ball away at opportune times than Baker does. So even if the Titans do not find success early on, they can count on Tannehill to make the necessary plays to not only sustain drives but potentially score points. Again, Baker has yet to show this.



    Last, agree with your final statement... though given their draft slot, I would have considered this year's group of QB Prospects. If anything, the likes of Matt Corral in a Browns uniform would give me cause for concern for sure. Unlike Baker, Matt Corral can place the ball where needed and has shown to sustain drives and win games when it matters most.




    Overall, as I said before and will again, I am quite happy that the Browns are moving onward with Baker as Baker is what he is; an average QB that needs everything to go right in order to win games. Oddly enough, he has had that in back to back seasons; 2020 being the highest peak he will ever reach in my opinion. Baker can get the Browns to the playoffs..... but a helleuva whole lot has to go right for him to lead them there.
     
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  10. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    Last year Baker only threw 6 INT. His INT% was 1.6. He had a really bad year this year.

    I'm not as worried about Baker's turnovers as his lack of big plays. He had a lot of big plays last year and his rookie year. This year he can't hit an out route.

    So I think Baker has injury problems and an immaturity problem. His whole identity is a "me against the world" attitude rather than just say the right thing for the team.

    If I was the Browns I would be trying to replace Baker with second or third day draft picks. Find that Russell Wilson, Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins that drops out of the 1st round.

    I don't know what round Corral is going in but I sure would not want him. It's like watching Johnny Manziel again. How clean is his pocket?! Are his OL going to the NFL because it looks like they should be. Corral will go to a team with a high value on the RPO but to me he looks like a poor man's Teddy Bridgewater.

    I don't like any of the QBs this year but from what I've seen Pickett and Strong have the best chance to be franchise QBs.

    Whoever a rookie QB might be it doesn't make sense for the Browns to move off Mayfield for him unless they have a high degree of certainty that the rookie will be a franchise QB. I really don't think 6'3 200 pound Corral is going to be effective or hold up physically in the NFL playing RPO.
     
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  11. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    Again though, what people saw of Baker Mayfield last year was the best version of Mayfield; the highest peak he can obtain. However, for him to have that success, everything else has to be firing on all cylinders; namely Cleveland's rushing attack. Granted, their rushing attack this season had been formidable; Nick Chubb top three in rushing yet again. However, should a team's rushing attack not prove sufficient, that is when a team turns to their QB to assist them in not only sustaining drives but scoring points.



    Even during the 2020 Season, to beat Baker, force the Cleveland Browns to make Baker beat them via the passing game. That sadly is not how the Browns are constructed to win games; doubly so for Baker to do so. For Cleveland to win games, the running game has to be efficient and successful; setting everything else up for the Offense in the process.


    Regarding Corrall... yes, being only 200lbs would concern me but that is an easy fix. What cannot be fixed is Baker's limited arm talent; something Matt has him beat in spades.



    Baker can win games..... just not the games that matter most.
     
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  12. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    I mean... Cleveland blew it on their QBs. Baker is by far the best they have done and he is average. They are too good to pick top 5. They can probably trade up around 10th.

    The year before Baker was drafted the Browns took Myles Garrett over Patrick Mahomes and David Njoku over TJ Watt. They deserve what they get. It's not going to work out for them because Haslam is a prick. Baker is just a scapegoat and when he is gone you will see that.
     
  13. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    I agree on Haslam. For that matter, I am still debating on if he surpasses the likes Dan Snyder, Dean Spanos, Shahid Kahn, Stephen Ross, the Ford Family and Christopher Johnson for the worst Owner in the NFL.... and that is quite a list of names. I am also wondering if Haslam has played a major reason as to why the Tennessee Vols almost never have successful seasons anymore as he is a major booster (though there are other major issues within that program as well).


    As for the 2017 Draft, it is easy to say this in hindsight as even the likes of Patrick Mahomes and T.J. Watt were either heavy question marks or, in T.J.'s case, possible busts. I also had Myles Garrett as the highest rated player heading into that now historic draft as there really was no QB entering that draft who was as complete at their position as Myles was at the EDGE and then some; a unicorn if you will. How things have shaped out? I am certain the Browns would have drafted Patrick Mahomes.... or would they. They also had the chance to draft Big Ben but did not believe he was good enough and too slow via a recent omission by Mary Kay Cabot on a podcast. In addition, remember that John Dorsey was the General Manager of the Browns at the time and was dead set on getting Myles Garrett long before the NFL Scouting Combine even took place.



    Overall, like JuJu stated, "the Browns is the Browns" and have showed me no major reason as to why that changes. Keeping Baker is a form of stability for certain; something the Browns have never had since re entering the league. However, there is a major difference between just being stable and having very good to great stability overall.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2022
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  14. KnoxVegasSteel

    KnoxVegasSteel Well-Known Member

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    Short answer is yes. The Haslams are the big money donor for UT athletics. His dad, Big Jim calls the shots about coaching, AD, and even chancellor hires at UT. It is dysfunctional as hell and there hasn't any continuity in a long time. I moved to knoxville in early 08 right around the time that Fulmer got run. Then Kiffin, Dooley, Jones, Pruitt, and now Heupel. In my 12 or so years here, I seen 6 head coaches and 4 ADs at UT. Jimmy's brother Bill was 2 term governor of TN and in that capacity had a lot of say about university funding, board of regents, etc. Part of why I choose not to patronize pilot/flying J.
     
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  15. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    Every QB is a potential bust.

    There's no such thing as stability on the Browns.

    Josh Allen was the best QB in Baker's draft class and I had him as third best after Baker and Darnold. So many "experts" liked Josh Rosen and I've never seen a QB I was more sure would be a bust other than Johnny Manziel.

    So it's all a guessing game but it's a game the Browns are especially bad at. I want them to pick again and you want them to keep Baker. I just think they have done and will do much worse.
     
  16. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    I sure do!!!



    I have outlined as to why I would want this! Getting a QB who is far more capable than Baker would cause concern for me. That said, given how the Browns believe in him, so be it.
     
  17. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    But if Matt Corral is a bust you'd be wrong, correct?
     
  18. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    I would be. Never stated I would not.


    More importantly, I also fail to see what remains the continuation of the debate itself; doubly so when the evidence is clear. Baker is not it... at all. He has had four seasons to prove it; each one being either very good to average at best. To believe that Baker Mayfield will somehow transform into Josh Allen is very unrealistic.
     
  19. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    !reminder one year

    Never said Baker would be elite or Josh Allen. I said the Browns can be a .500 team with him while they look for an upgrade.

    They have one year more with Baker under contract. They can try to move up and take a QB this year in the draft. Next year they have more options with Baker not under contract if he has a bad year. They're the Browns so they'll probably F it up as usual. If Baker plays better next year than he did last year you sign him long term for less money than the top QBs are getting. I don't see any other way to handle it. Throwing all in on an undersized RPO QB with the cleanest pocket since Manziel isn't it.

    I enjoyed this discussion. Hope the Browns screw it up.
     
  20. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    2 be honest... I didn't like any of them in that draft class. I thought it was as weak as this Years.
    Just because Qbs are coming out doesn't mean that at least 3-4 should go in the 1st round. It's stupid.
     
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  21. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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  22. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    Why???
     
  23. AskQuestionsLater

    AskQuestionsLater Writing Team

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    Not you.
     
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  24. FosterMorris

    FosterMorris Well-Known Member

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    I agree. There is way too much thirst for QBs and reaches are always made in each draft.

    What also sucks is that the worst teams keep wasting talented players but stay bad. There should be a lotto system like the NHL.
     
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  25. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    No. I like dumb teams staying dumb. LoL
     
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