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Can we say bold moves by the Pens?

Discussion in 'Other Sports Talk' started by Lizard72, Mar 28, 2013.

  1. Lizard72

    Lizard72

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    Is anyone else following what they're doing right now? They just put 3 proven captains on Their roster in 3 days! Wow no team from Pittsburgh has ever made this many statement moves!
     
  2. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    The pens made these type of moves in 90-93 when they won the cup back to back. They made key trades and picked up some high priced free agents and even though it worked they ended up in the bottom half of the league for the next few years because of it. What you are seeing now is Shero gambling a solid future on magic beans. He has traded all of his first few rounds picks in this years draft for two rental players and a former scoring champ all of who are over 30. Heck Morrow has basically said it is just for this season.
     
  3. TheSteelHurtin2188

    TheSteelHurtin2188 Well-Known Member

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    That 90s team also lost Mario and Jagr as long as Sid and geno are there the pens will be fine.
     
  4. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    While they have Sid locked up Geno is another story. Just like losing Mario it is not just about one Superstar it is who you have around them. How many years did Jagr struggle with average players around him. Shero is making these moves but not sure they needed to be made.
     
  5. BobbyBiz

    BobbyBiz Well-Known Member

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    What caused them to crash and burn in the early 90s was that they signed everyone to ridiculous contracts in hopes of keeping them together for a long time and winning a bunch more cups. They were banking a lot on deep deep PO runs and championships and the revenue that goes with it to help pay for everything. But with a couple of very early exits from the playoffs, they were doomed.
     
  6. 86WardsWay

    86WardsWay Well-Known Member

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    As a fan I can only hope that it does not disrupt the chemistry of this team. 13 game winning streaks don't come naturally.

    On paper they are stacked to make a Stanley Cup run very promising.
     
  7. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    I have no problem with bringing these guys in. It is the manner that they are obtained that worries me. The core of the team has been built through the draft. Since Shero has been GM he has made a habit of dealing away prospects and picks for these rental players that he is sure he can sign after the season. To date he has just as many hits as misses. So now instead of continuing to inject new talent into the system and continuing to build through the draft he has traded draft picks in the hopes that a cup will follow. I just hope it doesn't end with crosby playing the end of his career with some average players while the team struggles.
     
  8. BobbyBiz

    BobbyBiz Well-Known Member

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    I don't follow hockey nearly as closely as football, so from what I've read, they are so loaded with talent and prospects that they gave away practically nothing to get Iginla. And their offer wasn't as good as Bostons but Jerome specifically wanted to play for the Pens. From all media accounts this will have little impact on future players.
     
  9. shaner82

    shaner82 Well-Known Member

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    The 90's was a different situation altogether and can't be compared. In the 90's there was no salary cap, so the contracts and trades they made wasn't the reason they had to blow the team up. They had to blow the team up because the franchise was broke. They were in a crappy arena and there was no money to pay anyone. Hell, that's the reason Mario bought the team, it was that or not get paid at all as the team couldn't afford to pay the salaries of numerous players.

    In this situation, the team is going to have to worry about the salary cap and will make hard decisions to have to let guys go. The last 7-8 years the Pens have built through the draft and when they lost talent they replaced talent with talent through the draft. Trading away all their draft picks will prevent them from doing that if/when they lose guys to free agency because they can't afford them under the cap.

    Now with that said, if the Penguins win it all, then it's worth it. After all, that is the only goal. You don't play to win 2 years from now, you play to win now, and if that means selling the farm to get that championship, then it's worth it. If they don't win, then it becomes a problem.
     
  10. TheSteelHurtin2188

    TheSteelHurtin2188 Well-Known Member

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    It's going to be just like last time Malkin will get a deal right in the area of sids. Malkin really likes it in Pittsburgh and really likes playing with Sid. Hockey players still have some loyalty unlike the other sports and I hate to say it but it's probably because a lot of the players are foreign.
     
  11. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    Oh I agree I think Malkin wants to stay I just don't trust Shero anymore. The Jordan Staal trade was it for me. Not so much the trade because these things happen in sports it was the way Shero tried to spin it. He offered a very young man a ten year deal and alot of money. I am sorry but when I was 21 I couldn't decide what I was going to do for the next week let alone make a decision about the next ten years of my life. Add to it that Jordan is really close with his brothers and would like a chance to play with Eric(at some point, not immediately just wants the option) and it happens the weekend he is getting married and I thought how Shero handled it was poorly. The kid reject the first offer because it blew his mind and while he was getting used to the idea Shero pulled his little I feel snubbed routine and traded him. The thing that upset most fans is that he signed basically the same deal with Carolina that the Pens offered like he did snub the Pens. However I think he just got used to the idea of a ten year deal because that seems to be the way the NHL is heading with mega-year deals that are backloaded but offer a friendlier cap hit in the first few years.

    Shero did the same thing after the Jagr watch two years ago. Jags would come back to Pittsburgh if Mario said I want you to finish with us. Shero mets with him and doesn't get the vibe that he wants to play in Pittsburgh. While yeah its Jagr he wants to be wanted and if you are waiting for him to fall down and weep at the mere offer of playing with Sid and Geno it isn't going to happen. So we all lose Jags loses a chance to go out with the team that drafted him and got him two Cups and maybe heal the rift with the fans in Pitt, Shero loses out on getting a talented veteran who could help get the Pens back to the Cup, and those of us who have always pulled for Jagr despite the trade to the Caps and the Rangers have to watch him play for the Flyers.

    Last one I swear but Shero pulled the same crap this off season when he made no secret that Zach Parise and Ryan Sutter were his number one and number two targets during free agency and pushed both of them hard including having Sid help in the recruiting and he lost out. Parise wanted to come back home to Minnesota and maybe help them win a Cup and Sutter took a look and like the what the Wild had better than playing for the Pens who continue to be stocked with talent and a line-up that is hard to crack at times. Afterwards Shero spins it as well they hadn't really tried to get those two, they had early conversations but he didn't get the feel that they wanted to be there and yadda yadda yadda insert your tired old cliche here.

    I just don't trust the guy and while I love the Pens and Mario and support the team I am starting to feel like detaching myself from the players because they may not be there at any moment. Sid and Geno are great, Tanger is awesome to watch I like the chemistry that Neal and Malkin have going and Flower is starting to really get his form back, before the injury that is, but Staal was my guy, reminded alot of Heath Miller just a blue collar kid coming to work every day.
     
  12. shaner82

    shaner82 Well-Known Member

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    Thorn, you give Staal a free pass for turning down a 10 year deal but you you blame Shero? That makes no sense to me. Shero tried to keep him but Staal turned the deal down for whatever reason. All this nonsense about him being a kid and 10 year deal blew his mind is just that, nonsense. If it was a good deal for him and if he wanted to play in Pittsburgh, then his agent would have had him accept it regardless of how much it blows his mind. Besides, you're making an awful lot of assumptions about his state of mind. So once Shero realized he couldn't sign him, it was time to trade him to get something for him before they lost him.

    As for Jagr, that guy is a piece of garbage. He was never going to sign with Pittsburgh, not with Crosby there. Besides, Lemieux and Jagr had their differences too later in their careers. Jagr couldn't stand the fact that he wasn't the main guy in Pittsburgh and he wouldn't have been with Crosby. Shero did nothing wrong, Jagr was just being his typical self.

    I get you hate Shero, but look at the team he has built. They are in 1st place and are a stanley cup contender every single year. You complain players come and go too often, while that's the difference between hockey and football. Players don't often stick around long in hockey. Even Wayne Gretzky got shuffled around a lot in his career. There's not too many Mario's in the NHL.
     
  13. BobbyBiz

    BobbyBiz Well-Known Member

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    Jordan Staal has the talent to be a 1st or 2nd line center. There was no way he was going to be anything more than a third line C in Pittsburgh. They guy deserved a shot to anchor a top line in the NHL and deserved the pay to goes with it. Staying in Pittsburgh would have stunted his growth both professionally and financially. Mario Lemieux knew it, Ray Shero knew it, the fans knew it, and Jordan Staal knew it. There was nothing sinister or wrong with the way the whole situation was handled.
     
  14. shaner82

    shaner82 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Staal turned down a contract offer because he didn't want to play in Pittsburgh for the next 10 years. There's nothing Shero could have done different short of offering him more money than he was worth in order to get him to accept, but that would have been dumb.
     
  15. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    First off I don't hate Shero, it is hard to hate someone you don't know. As you pointed out he has done great things with the Pens, that being said I don't believe a word that comes out of his mouth any more and I question some of the things he does, however I am not an owner of the Penguins so my opinion does mean much. Now lets get to the Staal trade as I said trades happen especially in hockey. The second the Pens were bounced from the playoffs I knew Staal was on the trading block. I watched Shero's post season press conference and were previously he had stated there was no way he was trading Jordan Staal, this time it was we will have to see where we are, we have alot of pieces we need to address. I knew right then that he was going to have to at least talk about trying to trade Staal in order to keep the core together.

    Now when we talk about the trade I am not making assumptions there were two sides of the story that came out that weekend, one was Shero's and one was Staal's and I choose to believe Staal's. He gave an interview where he said he was blown away by the first offer and balked at it. Ten years is a long time and one of his priorities was having a chance to play with Eric, something that may not have happened if he signs the deal. He said he had to think about it and was getting used to the idea but then had to get ready for his wedding. Next thing he knows he is at the reception and he gets a call saying he has been traded to Carolina. Now i understand why Shero did it, he had a narrow window during the draft to get a good value for Staal. I understand it, it makes sense. It is the spin that happens after that bugs me. Yes the ten year deal makes the cap numbers a little easier to swallow and locks up a top six forward and solid two way player for ten years but they also could have offered him a four or five year extension that makes both sides happy he still has a window to play with Eric before he is too old, and the Pens have at least three more years with the core to make a run at the cup. The whole top line center stuff is nonsense because Shero and Bylsma could have at anytime put Crosby and Staal on the same line the same way the unleash they two head monster at times in games. It is just spin to make it seem like Shero did it for Jordan's own good, and maybe he did I don't know, like I said i understand the deal just don't like the way Shero spins things but that is just me.

    The Jagr thing I am not going to touch because Jagr is Jagr and like I said he wants to be wanted and Shero wants players to act like playing in Pittsburgh is the greatest thing ever, the deal was never going to work, but for those of us who watched 68 weave his magic it was a slim chance to see it one last time.

    I think we have covered these recent trades well enough and the potential problems, like you said earlier if they win everything is great if not they have to go back to the drawing board and try to recoup some picks to keep the talent pool going. I just have problems with rental players possibly because of Shero's first mega trade to get Hossa, that is probably just me.
     
  16. shaner82

    shaner82 Well-Known Member

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    Thorn, I'm with you on the rental players. It's always risky and often doesn't pay off. Everything else though I still don't get.

    Of course Shero isn't going to be completely honest and upfront about who he's selling, who he's looking to buy, etc. He's going to say what he needs to say to get the best deal for the Penguins. He also didn't trade Staal to look out for Staal's best interest, he did it because it was best for the team. He may not come out and say that, but it's obvious. Few GM's are going to be completely honest and upfront publicly. They'll say what they need to say. Look at Rex Ryan, he's insisting that they are not trading Revis, but the entire world knows that they are in fact shopping Revis and are dying to trade him because they're tired of his antics and they're worried he's going to hold out for more money.

    As for Jagr, I don't blame Shero for not bowing to him. Jagr isn't the same flashy superstar he used to be and he's not a two way player by any means. The Penguins haven't had trouble scoring goals for quite a while now, so Jagr wasn't even really a need for them. I bet that Mike Tomlin wouldn't bow to a player just to get him to sign with the team. In fact, the team is going to interview any player they are interested in signing to ensure that the player is a good fit.

    I don't understand the complaints about Shero whatsoever. The guy has one job and that's to build a contending team and that's what he's done. His job isn't to be honest with the media or fans, nor is it to bring back past superstars like Jagr. I bet a lot of other teams in the league would love to be able to do what Shero has done in Pittsburgh.
     
  17. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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    My basic problem is how he handles himself Shaner. When I look at nhl GMs like Bowman, Holland, Holmgren, Burke, or even a relatively new one like Yzerman, they manage to do their job with a certain amount of style. Does Shero have to be honest and upfront with the media and fans? No he doesn't but don't spin stories to make your mistakes seem like they weren't. He traded solid players for Hossa because he was sure he could resign him. He didn't and lost Malone in the process because he was focused on Hossa. Trades Caputi for Poni and tries to sell as a good move when he just didn't fit. Makes one huge offer to Staal anx when it is rejected Jordan's heart wasn't in Pittsburgh. To me the best deals he has made are the small quiet ones like the bill Guerin that help without being a distraction. I don't know maybe I do hate him lol.
     
  18. Jim90

    Jim90 Well-Known Member

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  19. thorn058

    thorn058 Well-Known Member

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  20. shaner82

    shaner82 Well-Known Member

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    I get what you're saying, and I guess I understand it, but I still don't agree. If Shero admits he made a mistake in a trade or in the draft, he's basically going to be trashing a player, likely a player currently on the team. That's rarely a good idea. He can't really admit that the Poni trade was a bad trade without slamming Poni, and he's not going to want to start trashing players, that's not a good move by a GM. It's quite possible Staal's heart wasn't in Pittsburgh. The offer was a good offer and the fact that he turned it down does seem to indicate he didn't have a ton of interest in signing a long term deal in Pittsburgh. You may have wanted Shero to offer a shorter deal like 3-5 years, but perhaps he didn't think that was a good business decision.

    As for other GM's handling themselves differently than Shero, I'm not so sure I agree. A guy like Yzerman is generally quiet and says next to nothing, but take Burke for example. The Kessel trade was a bad trade for Toronto. In fact, it was a horrible trade. To this day though, Burke insists it was a great trade and he'd do it again. The whole world knows he's lying, but what is he supposed to do, admit he regrets trading for Kessel? He can't really do that, so he has no choice but to lie. I'm sure Shero has been in the same boat, where telling the truth slams a player, which isn't really a good choice.

    I'll say this, if you ever get sick of having a winning franchise, as a Leafs fan, I'll take Shero in Toronto.
     
  21. Jim90

    Jim90 Well-Known Member

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