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BUMP - Ben's Clock Management (sigh...)

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by HugeSnack, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    At this point I'm just going to quote posts I made previously, rather than type new ones:

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    And I know there were more. I did this thrice a year on the old board. Gee, I'm starting to think Ben isn't reading my posts. It's simple priorities. Not debatable priorities like missing a game for a birth. These are iron-clad, non-subjective, only-one-right-answer priorities. When you're on your own 10 yard line with 50 seconds left, time is a priority over downs and you spike the ball if you're out of timeouts. When you're on the other team's 2 yard line with 50 seconds left, time is not even a freaking issue at all. Call a timeout. Throw a pass. Run a running play. ANYthing. DOWNS are now the priority. I don't want to be a smug ass (well, not more than usual), but I literally had all this stuff down before I went to middle school. And it's not a hindsight thing. This isn't me reviewing film. I know what needs done before every play, and am screaming at the TV as I see the horror that is Ben's spiking unfold before my eyes. Any educated fan knows this stuff and can make the decision live. Most quarterbacks do. How does Ben think it's a good idea to give us only two chances in the end zone instead of three? We gained nothing with his spike, we risked 4 points, and there was no reward at all. For a guy so good in the no-huddle, how is it that his brain doesn't work? It's easy! That's not just a fan saying it's easy because it looks easy. It really is easy! WTF BEN??

    I know, I know, Heath caught the TD. And in other games when he has cost us downs and/or points, I believe we've always won anyway. But who are we to be throwing points away? Not by way of poor throw or dropped pass, but for NO reason at all? The end result of us scoring despite only having two chances, or us not scoring but winning anyway, doesn't change how unbelievably horrificly stupid Ben's (and, by enabling, the team's) actions are. I used to think he'd hear about this stuff after the games, and then just forget next time. Now I think no one in the organization even realizes it's a problem. Haley and Tomlin both looked cool and in the zone after Ben's spike. No confusion, no nothing. Maybe they can just get over it faster than me, but I have to think there's some communication there and they chose to let him spike the ball. People, write your congressman and tell them they're morons.
     
  2. Concussion

    Concussion Well-Known Member

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    After reading this post, I saw this quote in the online version of the Post Gazette:

    I should have called time out," Roethlisberger said. "The play clock was running down, and I hate to burn time outs, but I should have because we were kind of all over the place."

    Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/spo ... z264R2KAZb
     
  3. blountforcetrauma

    blountforcetrauma Well-Known Member

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    I also cringe when it comes to our clock management. I'm really sick of Tomlin just giving Ben the reigns. If we as just observers can see that it's a problem then Tomlin needs to step up and handle the clock in the red zone when we are running out of time. However I also think Mike Tomlin is also a horrible clock manager and I think he has even admitted that it's something he needs to work on.
     
  4. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    You know, I think you may have found the problem. The word "burn" gets thrown around when it comes to timeouts. I always think of "burning a timeout" as using one when it has nothing to do with the game clock, and is strictly a play clock issue. Like it takes too long to get the play in from the OC, or you don't like what the defense is showing you, and you have to call timeout so you don't get a delay of game. That's burning a timeout, because you're wasting it on your own mistake instead of using it to help you win.

    But in our scenario it's just using a timeout. This is what they're for, and there's no shame in using one. What the hell else are you saving it for? The defense? In case you get sacked? I got news for you, Ben, that is a not-sack-acceptable situation anyway.

    If Ben thinks it's bad to ever call timeout, that would explain a lot. Maybe he was scarred by being put "in timeout" as a kid. If only they'd beaten him like loving parents!
     
  5. FeartheBeard

    FeartheBeard Well-Known Member

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    I agree. There is a HUGE difference in USING a timeout and BURNING one- something Ben clearly does not get.
     
  6. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    I meant to mention this but I forgot... I hear announcers say "burn" all the time, even when the timeout is perfectly justified. "And with one second remaining before the end of overtime, the Steelers will burn their second timeout and bring on the field goal unit..."
     
  7. FeartheBeard

    FeartheBeard Well-Known Member

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    :lolol:
     
  8. SSylvester

    SSylvester Well-Known Member

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    I am in total agreement with you on this but I would like to extend this to Ben's management of the play clock. He is just terrible at it. He doesn't get to the line until there's about 12-13 seconds left. Then he decides to change the play and takes another 10 seconds having an individual conversation with each member of the offensive unit. THEN with about 2-3 seconds left, he starts his count. Someone needs to tell him to quit wasting time and just snap the ball already.
     
  9. Concussion

    Concussion Well-Known Member

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    [/quote]
    You know, I think you may have found the problem. The word "burn" gets thrown around when it comes to timeouts. I always think of "burning a timeout" as using one when it has nothing to do with the game clock, and is strictly a play clock issue. Like it takes too long to get the play in from the OC, or you don't like what the defense is showing you, and you have to call timeout so you don't get a delay of game. That's burning a timeout, because you're wasting it on your own mistake instead of using it to help you win.

    But in our scenario it's just using a timeout. This is what they're for, and there's no shame in using one. What the hell else are you saving it for? The defense? In case you get sacked? I got news for you, Ben, that is a not-sack-acceptable situation anyway.

    If Ben thinks it's bad to ever call timeout, that would explain a lot. Maybe he was scarred by being put "in timeout" as a kid. If only they'd beaten him like loving parents![/quote]

    That is exactly what I was thinking. So many times you see them running down the field to spike it when they have timeouts. In contrast, Manning called a timeout when he couldn't figure out what Polamalo was going to do on a play.
     
  10. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    ben was interveiwed after the game and asked about the confusion down there. his answer was, we were in no huddle and haley kept trying to call a certain play instead. i have to ask, who the heck is incharge during this. ben,running the no huddle or haley wanting to be incharge and call what he wants?

    to me we keep running the nohuddle that moved us down the field. haley to me gets to excited and trys to call "the perfect play" to show his leadership skills. he's done this in his past jobs too. this should have been ironed out before they even started the season. :shrug: :cool:
     
  11. mdbates2

    mdbates2 Well-Known Member

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    Wow!This was not even in my mind regarding Sunday's game. In fact, I was talking to my son on the phone and was praising the Steelers for brilliant clock management in the first half. To score late and to receive the ball in the 3rd quarter provides an amazing opportunity for the offense to put multiple scores on the board - and to rest the defense. I thought they did a nice job in that drive of not panicking, running the clock, but giving themselves enough time to score. Hmmmm guess I was thinking differently than everyone else.
     
  12. Thigpen82

    Thigpen82 Bitter optimist

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    I imagine it will get ironed out in the post-game team meetings as the season goes on.

    Though we may have problems if Haley wants to interfere with the hurry up, as in the past that's been the only way we can move the ball... not so much at Denver, mind, but certainly in the past.
     
  13. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    This was about one particular play right before Heath Miller's touchdown. He spiked the ball for no reason on first and goal from inside the 5. He had plenty of time to run any kind of play he wanted, as well as a timeout to use if he was confused or didn't have a play ready, or just wanted to huddle. We would have had three chances to score a touchdown, but he gave us two. Thankfully, we scored on the second chance. However, as I noted above, Ben has done this many, many times throughout his career, and never seems to learn from it. The drive was nice, but I'm not sure what it has to do with clock management, other than being no-huddle. There was plenty of time for it.

    It's such a pitiful mistake to make even once, let alone several times per year, that I refuse to just accept it because the man who makes it also does so much good for our team. It's not only a stupid mistake, it's one with a whole bunch of easily accessible solutions. And we just don't go for them.
     
  14. Physical Presence

    Physical Presence Member

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    I agree. What was the rush to spike the ball? When you're inside the 5 yard line with 50 seconds remaining, especially with a timeout remaining in your pocket, downs are way more important than time. They even could have huddled up if they wanted to. They almost left too much time on the clock for Peyton. Had they scored on 2nd down instead of 3rd, there would have been nearly 35 seconds left for Manning. Even with only 28 seconds left, I was very surprised that Denver just took a knee with two timeouts in their pocket. I've seen Manning move the ball downfield in less time than that. Frankly, I was relieved he knelt on it, cause we have a tendency to play really loose in the final two minutes and give up cheap fg's.
     
  15. blountforcetrauma

    blountforcetrauma Well-Known Member

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    I guess in some ways I can forgive Ben a little for trying to have individual conversations. I mean he has basically been pounded like a drum for the past few years. He's probably like "Hey dude... just keep me upright for this ONE play and I'll buy you a big juicy steak!!!" lol.
     
  16. takenoprisoners1

    takenoprisoners1 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with everything in the original post. I have often lamented about the (not so) 'little things' we do that may not end up costing us games, but certainly make you wonder who's running the show. Spiking the ball (or even calling timeout) unnecessarily in the red zone (especially after we had just failed to score a TD on a First and Goal from the 3 IN THE SAME GAME). Even in Super Bowl XLIII I was going nuts when we took our last time out after Santonio's romp down to the 6 with just under a minute to play. I sort of get that one because there was a lot riding on the next call, but it still only served to give Arizona a chance to come down the field one last time. I remember a situation on opening day against Atlanta when Tomlin took a timeout with 2:04 and the clock running when we had the ball first and 10 on our own 40. What were we trying to preserve? We ended up needing to punt and giving Atlanta a LOT of time try and score to break the tie. Fortunately, we won that game. I also cringe when there's about 2:42 left on the clock when the play clock starts and I fully expect us to call a timeout on defense instead of MAKING them snap the ball just before the 2-minute warning. I don't like THINKING we're going to do something silly in that regard, but I tend to expect the worst....

    Other things (and I know some might disagree with me here) like going for 2 before you absolutely NEED to. We were set to go for 2 in the Denver game before the 3rd quarter even ended to go up 7 instead of 6....I get the math and all, but if we fail, we risk going down 3 when the other team scores with a lot of football still to play, or losing if they kick 2 field goals. We did the same thing in a playoff game against Jacksonville AFTER a holding call on the first try (to try to cut their lead to 3 instead of 4 -- still in the 3rd quarter). We failed, scored another touchdown, failed on THAT 2-point conversion, and ended up losing the game by 2. Of course, maybe the problem here is that we fail on 2-pointers and our opponents don't, although I don't have the stats to back that up and probably remember the times we fail more than when we succeed. I still had that Jacksonville memory when I saw us lining up for 2 against Denver and predicted to my brother we would go down 3 when Peyton scored his next touchdown....(again, defeatist attitude I hate to have, but it's where my thinking unfortunately goes based on history).

    While I'm venting (probably because I was at the Denver game on the visiting side about the 20YL), can someone also explain to me how Manning can complete a 15-20 yard pass down to the 5 while the defender (I think Lewis) has drifted back 4-5 yards deep in the end zone? I get not wanting to get burned for the 'big play,' but how far behind you can the receiver get near the goal line? Do we have a situational defense that says you play differently near the goal line?

    All that said, and for as many things as seemed to go wrong, we had the ball and the chance to win the game with 3 minutes to go (I was briefly reminded of Super Bowl XLV and then I nearly vomited when I thought of Sylvester's unnecessary roughness on that last kickoff), so it was certainly not all bad, but I wish we could do some of the strategic things just naturally better since all of our games seem to be so close....

    Thanks for the post. It was therapeutic for me! I will be flying to Pittsburgh from the West Coast this weekend to try and erase the Denver memory against the Jets. Here's hoping! GO STEELERS!
     
  17. Rush2seven

    Rush2seven Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I was watching a different game. Manning came out and took a knee at the end of the first half. Now, I thought too that the spiking the ball at 50 seconds was unnecessary. Lots of time for only a few plays, especially if you were going to throw for the endzone, take a few seconds to call the play and give yourself one more shot at it. The clock will stop if its incomplete. But 14 seconds left? I must have missed that one.

    You can blame the QB all you want for clock management, but that responsibility has to be on the head coach's shoulders. The qb has to consider the next play, call the play, read the defense, etc, etc. Yes they need to manage the clock as well, but again the "ultimate responsibility" belongs to the head coach.
     
  18. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    Yes, you were watching a different game. Literally. That quote was from last year's Browns game in week 17.

    I highly disagree. It is the responsibility of both of them to make a decision whether to spike/play/timeout. The quarterback should not be so stupid as to need help. But if he does, the coach should be there for him. There is no excuse for either man to make the wrong decision. No one from the high school level or above, either coach or quarterback, has any excuse to not know what to do. All you need to know is down, distance, timeouts and time remaining. And you know all that stuff before the play starts. Sometimes you have an option of things to do. Sometimes there is no option. There is always one thing that you absolutely can't do. Ben does that thing on a regular basis.
     
  19. Wardismvp

    Wardismvp Well-Known Member

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    This should be gone over in practice but apparently it is not, I guess the
    coaches assume that a person that has played probably since the age of 8
    understands football/strategy. I guess coach T really doesn't understand it either
    looking back at his poor time MGMT record. Pleas Todd Haley explain strategy to these 2 PLease!
     
  20. diehardsteel

    diehardsteel Well-Known Member

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    Sorry Snack but this is actually just a myth perpetrated by people who don't watch game film. Reference also Ben's management issues of the play clock, also proven to be a myth. There's something about the combination of Ben and clocks that get people on this board totally riled up. :swordsman:
     
  21. CANTON STEEL

    CANTON STEEL Well-Known Member

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    I could be reading into your intentions wrong here diehard but I think you're referring to Ben letting the play clock go to 1 before hiking the ball. This thread, as i read it, seems to be referring to Ben spiking the ball instead of calling a TO. Two different things. But like i said, I could be reading you wrong. ;-)
     
  22. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    Well, I wasn't complaining about the play clock. I see the point, because it lets the defense tee off on him if they know he has to snap it, but frankly that's small potatoes when compared to getting the play right and everybody on the right page. To me that's just a minor annoyance, and it only happens sometimes, and every QB does it. Not a big deal to me.

    Also note that I wasn't complaining about his clock management in general, like throughout a game. And of course he has a great history with the two minute drill. I was only complaining about his inability to diagnose the correct action when the clock is winding down and he has to make a decision about whether to run a play, spike the ball, or call timeout.

    I'm not trying to be sarcastic here, but I'm really not sure if you're kidding. Was your post a joke? Are you just trying to mess with me for fun? My sarcasm meter came back inconclusive. I don't know how you can say it's a myth when it happens several times per year. It happens. It just happened last Sunday! Even if that was the very first time (it's NOT), even once is an embarrassment. This is stuff he should have mastered by 7th grade.

    If you're trying to make the point that it's never cost us a victory, I won't argue. If you're trying to say he doesn't blow these things on a regular basis and cost us downs and chances (or attempts to; sometimes he is bailed out by Tomlin), you don't have a leg to stand on. I'd been screaming about it on the old board ever since I joined that one years ago. Off the top of my head, he did it against the Broncos last week, he did it against the Browns last year, he did it against the Ravens in '08 two plays before Santonio's controversial TD (the one where he may have been down at the 1 inch line -- without that spike, had the call been reversed it would have only been 3rd and goal from the 1 inch line and we'd score a TD on the next play). And there are more, but I don't want to go searching through play-by-plays right now. I've seen it probably a dozen times from him or more. You can't just give yourself 2 plays instead of 3 for fun. It's a mistake that costs you a precious down and time. It makes no sense.

    Oh, he did it in the Super Bowl, too, determined to give us only 2 shots into the end zone to win the game instead of 3. It only took 2, so nobody might care, but you can't possibly think it's anything but ridiculously stupid.

    [youtube:1c0igwbn]YizInnc1KKw[/youtube:1c0igwbn]4:14 mark.

    I'm gonna go with, you were just messing with me. :good:
     
  23. CANTON STEEL

    CANTON STEEL Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure he was referring to this thread snack

    viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3844&p=73354#p73354 (3..2..1 HIKE !!?? )

    But like I said in my above post i'm not positive. Pretty sure but not positive, lol
     
  24. diehardsteel

    diehardsteel Well-Known Member

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    Game clock, play clock, they're both just myths. Nothing to see here.

    Yes snack and canton steel, that earlier comment and the one above were intended to set your sarcasm meters off. Since it didn't, I either didn't do a very good job of being sarcastic or you guys need to check the batteries in your meter. :-D I absolutely agree that we as a team struggle with things elite teams shouldn't: game clock, time outs, challenge flags, and yes, even the play clock. There are those on this board who choose to believe our team is without fault and that our team's shortcomings are merely myths and urban legends. If there was a smiley available that had his head in the sand, I would put it HERE in honor of them.
     
  25. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I think you're right, although I thought someone else might have mentioned it in this thread too. Just wanted to clear up that it wasn't me, and I'm still not sure how the spike thing could be a "proven myth."
     

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