Ben Vs. Batch...

First off....
NO WAY AM I SAYING BATCH IS BETTER THAN BEN!!!...
However, I think Ben could learn something, from watching how Batch threw to his checkdown recievers/runningbacks, in the Rams game.
I love ya, Ben....
But you make me crazy, always looking for the deep pass...
I`ve seen you make some unbelievable things happen, with little shovel passes as you are about to go down,
but other than that, you seem to miss a lot of wide open, underneath recievers when you are scrambling around, looking for the deep ball.
Your teammates have a lot of ability to pick up yards after the catch, if you give them the chance, on shorter passes.
Hard to complain, with the sucess you have had, I just think we could do much better on at least gaining yards/getting first downs, THEN going for the deep ball, when our speedsters break open on plays that are designed that way from the start.
Again, I am glad I can nitpick about this, instead of having serious issues at the qb spot, like a lotta teams have,
but,
I just think we could be much more dangerous, overall, if we mixed in more passes to the rb`s outta the backfield, and shorter passes to our wrs...
NOT that damn bubble screen!!!
Batch seemed to know how to use that part of the game, very well...
Maybe Ben could take note of it.
GO STEELERS!

 

It should be BA/Ben vs. a real Game plan.........As he actually plans for a QB without the same skill level of Ben.....The use of the running game and the use of PA is what makes this Team go......As I stated in the fire BA thread he allows or even encourages Ben to look for the deep ball..Someone stated if I could prove that then they would be all in to fire BA....Well,,,,,,,

I can't prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt ,but I still have a reasonable suspicion that this occurs.....In part the way that we look when we change QB'S.....Also another factor is the way BA talks about Ben and his ability to make the Big Play.....To add to that the way he states the skill and speed of the new guys makes him want to keep Coaching....To further add to this suspicion the Statements of practicing the scramble plays to set up big plays,,,,,to add to that the statements he has made about not being concerned about the free blitzer as he expects Ben to shrug them off and make a play.....

The main thing I see that happens when Ben is not the QB is that we actually have a game plan and we work off the running game.....It has been that way everytime that Ben doesn't start......We are also very effecient in the Redzone when we approach the game that way.....I can only imagine how great this approach would work with a better skilled QB at the helm....

Oh I almost forgot that BA has stated numerous times about being affraid to Coach Ben,,,,plus i have never seen BA get upset 1 time when Ben throws into double or triple coverage,,,,I have never heard him say that Ben should have looked for or took the checkdown....

So while this doesn't prove my statement I think it shows a lot of supportive facts,,,,and has swayed me to believe that BA is the major problem and has allowed at the very least for Ben to play the way he plays......In my Heart of Hearts I think there is enough evidence to support he actually encourages that type of play both in practice and in the game from Big Ben.....

Either way it is time to move on and get an OC who will not allow or not encourage Ben to play that way,,,which ever the case may be.....

 

How much more do we have to take from BA?. I strated earlier in a post that BA doesn't use or backs the way the Ravens use Ray Rice on screens and short passes. All he does is heave it down the field to our explosive receivers. What it is about is BA's scheme of pitch and catch up and down the field. He doesn't get it, you must work on the running game constently in practice. All BA does is play pitch and catch during practice. He has no clue on how to develop a running game. The sooner the organization realizes this, the better.

I for one hope that Mr. Rooney fires him after the season because he went back to his old ways after Mr. Rooney told him to work on getting back to the run game. He had his warning.

 

well if we are going to play that game I think there is a lot Batch could learn from Ben too

 

You know I agree that's for sure......The only way I think he keeps his job is if he turns to the run and we run the table......As I stated months back there is no way we can win the Super Bowl playing Bombs away,,,well actually I stated it before the last GB game......Teams are ready to be run on if we so desire and I know we have the talent if we would only apply it....

It is so sad to watch some of our games knowing if only we would establish the run and use PA no TEAM would have an answer.......A lot of talking heads are starting to say the same thing ,,,which scares me because the Brillance of BA will probably go bombs away in an effort to prove them wrong and give credit to his flawed system......

As crazy as this may sound with BA as the OC our best chance might be without Ben just to force his hand we know we have the D and we know the weather is coming ,,,,I will just puke over and over again if we throw the ball 50 times in the snow and get booted from the play offs..........

Had we had more Love for the run game and the desire to use the PA we would already be the #1 seed ,,so his style is the reason the road looks the way it does...

 

PWP, I have said many times already that the Steelers will never win another Super Bowl as long as BA is the OC. He will never change. He did his damage when he changed the whole culture of the offense by getting rid of all the legit full backs and started using TE's as blockers. Then he had a lot to do with the drafting of all the receivers. He also change the blocking scheme to a zone scheme, which our OL is not built for. The guards are not good enough.

He is the sole person responsible for the offensive woes that the Steelers have.

 

Let's be honest here! St. Louis is a terrible team and with key injuries they turn terrible into pathetic. Ok, Mendy finally rushed for 100 yds and had a decent game against a really crappy team, yeah, Batch was so great (according to this board) with a 79.2 QB rating. But, it's easier to have checkdown receivers when you're playing a team as weak as St. Louis. I am sure Batch would have had alot of problems with his checkdowns against the 49ers lastweek.

Basically, When Mendy is playing a tough D like Baltimore, San Fran, heck even the Stains this week, our run game doesn't exist because these 1st down and second down runs of minus yardage or minimal gains doesn't help your QB with short checkdown passes on 3rd and 10.

 

The steelers were one successful drive away from destroying that theory, which makes your odds very weak. I bet your prediction last year half way through the season was "there is no way the Steelers will make the playoff or reach the super bowl with the bombs away play calling.

 

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I don't care if he throws 20 deep balls a game as long as there from a potential running set off of PA from a running play we have actually established........

Just to throw this out there the Team I work with on the HS level threw the ball like 30 times and ran it 15 in one game......The reason I bring this up is we ran 22 and 23 trap the 1st. 9 snaps or so and scored and after that we ran trap pass almost the rest of the game the few times we did actually run after that it was for huge gains......The QB Went like 22 for 30 for 250 or so yards with 3 TD passes....

The reason I say this is relevant is that's what Imposing your will is all about......We thought we could run trap on them and we went into the game with plays designed from that....We got our players to believe and we worked on multiple passing trees from the trap pass ....So why we basically ran the same 3 plays against a Team that was suppose to be better they had no answer and this is the approach I know that works and I see from many Teams on every level......Yet with BA he runs PA from plays we haven't even run yet......Down here we call that getting cute and it rarely even works on the HS Level.........
.So stop be cute and devise a plan and Impose your will and exute the plan.....Bombs away is no plan....

 

Nope my prediction was the Bombs away approach will cost us games.....Seems to me it has...

I also pedicted we would be a playoff Team and get bounced if we fail to do what we did last year...

And just jor your info we turned the run game loose and Redman was at over 7 ypc and Mendy was at around 6 I believe in the playoffs......Then we got to the last game and did exactly what beat us we turned away from the run and the PA pass..........Exactly how I feared it would happen .......I don't understand how some people can't see the truth???GB wins when they use PA and they have used it at least 60 more times than us this year,,,I don't have the exact # ,but the point is still the same .....
We have a much better backfield than them,we have a much better Defense than them and we also have a lot smaller,faster WR'S than them as a unit.........So any way I add it up we should be the ones with 60 more PA passes than them......I want even get into the Pre Snap read ability of the 2 QB'S as that should put us another 30 or 40 more PA snaps ahead of them...

So if we had 120 more PA attempts I would guarentee you we would not have more than 2 lost games at this point maybe even none...............

 

Remembering that failed drive you talk about, I remember last SB was lost the play before we attempted & failed a FG from around the GB 40 yard line. We had been mixing in runs very successfully but got to a 3rd & short & attempted a 10/15 yard pass which went incomplete. If we had used an effective running play we would have had the FD and kept the momentum.

 

Couldn't agree more with your first statement. If Ben used his check downs more Mendenhall would be unstoppable in the open field but he always looks for the "splash plays" and more often then not it hurts us. The last time he got himself hurt. He could of thrown the ball alway or found someone on a shorter route.

 

Here's what I remember about last year's playoffs:

1st round: Bye

Divisional Round (v. Ravens): Terrible first half that ended with Steelers down by about 3 TDs? Steelers turned it on with defense accompanied by a collapsing 2nd half Ravens FTW.

AFCC (v. Jets): Run game dismantled the Jets D. Large Steeler lead by halftime. 2nd half went away from the run and the defense had to protect the lead FTW.

Superbowl XLV (v. Pakers): "Bombs Away"... multiple INTs... Mendy fumbles... Ben can't hit the deep WR... Steelers lose SB.


I think an important point (even more important than "Steelers played that horrible and almost won the SB") is that the style of ball the Steelers played in SBXLV has routinely ended in a loss (2011 game 1 vs Ravens, 2011 game vs 49ers). Yes, Ben has the ability to pull out spectacular wins out of nowhere... and he's the best at getting it done that way. I guess many of us are wondering why not make it easier by taking what the defense gives you versus trying to force the issue and making costly mistakes. Why not make it easy on yourself and increase your percentage chance of winning?

If Ben/BA want to play "Bombs Away" then I'm fine with that. But how about Ben actually hit his wide open deep man (aka Wallace) when he's open to make up for the INTs. Because Batch's deep ball to Wallace on Saturday felt like the first time I'd seen that since Vietnam.

 

I agree. We'll see what happens when Ben gets back.

 

Did you not watch the Colts game this year? Or the Titans game? Or the Jags game? Or the Cards game? Ben has hit Wallace on deep balls, he just didn't hit him the last couple of weeks

 

Did you not watch the Colts game this year? Or the Titans game? Or the Jags game? Or the Cards game? Ben has hit Wallace on deep balls, he just didn't hit him the last couple of weeks[/quote:36fziwno]

My point is that Ben seems to miss Wallace more than he hits him starting with the last SB. And Wallace is usually wide open, having left the defender a few yards in the dust. If you're going to go "Bombs Away" then Ben should stick that pass 85% to 90% of the time when Wallace is open. It seems he does not. Also, based on "Bombs Away" there shouldn't be ANY game in which he doesn't hit Wallace with that pass at least once. And it really should be every other drive if you're going to play this way.

 

Bombs away Ben. The big reason why the Steelers moved on to play the Jets last year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmREZwBffvA

 

Ben is given way more leeway in the passing attack and Batch benefitted from a good ground attack against a weak opponent.

 

Wallace isn't wide open because he's being double covered. That's exactly why Brown is becoming a bigger threat. Also, I have seen Wallace drop and give up on a lot of balls this year and yeah of course a QB is not not going to connect on the deep ball 100% of the time. Also, Wallace has to fight to get better position on the defenders when the ball is being thrown in great coverage and Wallace doesn't help Roethlisberger in that part of his game, that's for sure.

 

Ahhh, the "helmet catch". Love it!

 

Please explain the ones where Wallace does help, is wide open (3 yards past receiver) and Ben is under/overthrowing? That is my concern. It's happened to Brown, too.

 

I think ben could be a more efficient and healthier qb if he plays this way.If you noticed, ben played this way against the pats and we dominated.Get the ball out your hand quickly and let the race horses do the rest.Batch even hit wallace for a long one.Wallace had to wait for the ball but it was an completion

 

That's a 3rd and 19, I expect them to try something deep.

On 3rd and 2 I don't expect them to try and get a touchdown. I expect them to get a first down at the very least, and if they get a touchdown then great--but get a first down first. They go 5 wide on 3rd and 2 constantly, it's annoying. With Batch in there they probably run it here.

 

That was undoubtedly an awesome play by Ben/AB.

But please don't forget Steelers were down 21-7 coming into the second half, and the following happened: 1) Ryan Clark strips Ray Rice and fumble recovered by Woodley at Balt 23 yd line setting up short field for offense and a TD, 2) Ryan Clark intercepts Flacco going to Heap and returns 17 yds to Balt 25 yd line setting up the short field for the offense again and a TD, and 3) Flacco fumble at Balt 25 recovered by The Beard at Balt 23 yd line which lead to a FG.

This string of defensive dominance by the Steelers resulted in short fields for the offense which lead to short scoring drives and 24-21 lead for the Steelers. Ravens get a field goal in there to make it 24-24, but then there was that splash play, deep pass to Brown by Ben which setup the winning score. On that drive Ben did take it the length of the field against Balt's D. Further it looks like he was 4/8 on deep passes that game (2 legit completions and 2 I'm giving him because defense pass interfered on one play and committed illegal contact on the other). On the four he missed the receiver could have had something to do with it, but that's not my argument here. Four for eight (50%) really isn't bad there... Two of them setup scores (1 was PI on Balt D on pass to Wallace in 1st qtr and the other the catch by Brown in the 4th qtr). Even still, the bulk of scoring came from a short field provided by the defense and short, controlled passing by Ben and running plays to move the ball into Balt's end zone.

I disagree that the deep pass was the big reason. Without the defense, Ben would not have been in position to win the game. I have to say that the defense was the big reason, in this game. However, the deep pass was a significant contributing factor. If we are using this game as an example, then it appears the deep pass will not work alone, but is only a splash play that must be supported by defensive-lead turnovers that provide a short field for scoring drives that do not utilize the deep pass.

Also, as a side note, it also appears that Ben ended up sacked, or drives stalled resulting in punts, when drives that required moving the length of the field were mitigated with the short, controlled pass game. Ben used more short-to-mid range passing in this game, as a whole. But this will lead to a different discussion. It was just a point of interest as I analyzed the play-by-play.