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Ben not nearly as bad as some are saying

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Watt Wack, Nov 1, 2017.

  1. jeh1856

    jeh1856

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    I for one go to the games. I commonly watch Ben with binoculars. And no, he is not fine. Something just isn’t right, and the people around me see it as well. Maybe it’s harder to see in tv. One throw he looks like a girl doing the shootput. It seems to take everything he has to get the gall to the sideline on a 5 yard out pattern. A play latter he throws a bullet. Then back to a really odd motion that barely gets there.

    I don’t know if it’s the lower body, the upper body, or the noggin. But something is just off. Not bragging, just saying, I’ve had a season ticket for 48 years. I may not know all the Madden terminology. But I do know a bad throwing motion.
     
  2. PWP

    PWP Well-Known Member

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    I use stats from time to time now, I have learned they do have value . With that said I am really a eyeball test guy. What do you see ? What is that telling you? Without being able to see the practice the game tape is all I have . This could lead to a mirage as did the game tape with Bell. But wishing and hoping for a great Ben to return seems futile to me. He didn't miss camp, he doesn't have a poor OL,he doesn't have a poor running game, he is not short on Receiving weapons.

    Yet his picks are up , his completion rating is down, and we as a Team ranked next to last in the red zone and my eye test says he is not right . I actually felt that last year . So the smart money is on Ben is a shell of what he used to be . The question is will we allow that to ruin the season or not ? If that information is correct .
     
  3. Watt Wack

    Watt Wack Well-Known Member

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  4. Watt Wack

    Watt Wack Well-Known Member

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    Meaningless you say?

    The 3 QBs ahead of Ben on passing yards are Brady, Alex Smith and Wentz. Are those 3 QBs playing well this season? Is it just a coincidence they are leading in yardage this season AND that they are all playing the best football?
     
  5. strummerfan

    strummerfan Well-Known Member

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    They're also putting the ball in the endzone. The Steelers are marching down the field and kicking field goals. Big freaking difference. Yes, total yards is meaningless as an offensive staistic. You can have yards without points, but you're hard pressed to have points without yards.
     
  6. Daddymac10

    Daddymac10 Well-Known Member

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    True, he may not be as bad, but he's leaving a whole bunch of points on the field each game. Even when he hit JuJu on that big gain on the first play, it's an easy TD if he is lead & don't have to wait for the ball. Ben's #1 asset that made him great has left him ...and that is the ability to extend plays to make plays...
     
  7. mgsmooth

    mgsmooth Well-Known Member

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    If Ben was seriously contemplating retirement in the off-season, how much off-season training did he actually put in?

    With his age getting up there along the hits he’s taken over the years, how much time was spent in the gym getting ready for this season?

    This is what players his age need to keep doing to keep up.

    Was he just doing his hunting trips with Jim Kelly and playing with the kids?

    Occasionally we would hear he would hook up with his receivers and work out with them. Not sure if this happened this year.

    Whatever he did or didn’t do, our best shot is with 7 at the helm, but a lot of what we see is from a player who was likely not going to play this year.
     
  8. SteelerGlenn

    SteelerGlenn

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    Jim92's definition of telling it how it is:
    Criticizing players and coaches for perceived shortcomings. Never giving praise when players or coaches do well.
    Awesome!!!!!
     
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  9. SteelerGlenn

    SteelerGlenn

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    Lol. And the retirement talk started immediately after last season was over. And then it wasn't super long before that was dismissed.
    I doubt it had any effect on his off-season training regiment.
    Now his off-season training program in general may leave a But to be desired?
     
  10. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    Wow, I watch every game and what I see is a QB who is playing bad and is surrounded with a bunch of talent. Ben could and should be having an MVP season and there is no reason why this team isn't scoring 30+ points a game. I really think you need to watch the game a little closer, Ben is missing WIDE OPEN receivers, he is hitting receivers in stride 1 out of 10(if not more) times. This is not the Ben we are use to seeing. The first play of the game last week how was that pass....or how about the one in the endzone to I think DHB where he was the only one on my tv screen? The list goes on and on and on, yeah the throw to Juju on the 97 yarder was perfect.....that was just one!

    I am a Ben fan and love what he has done for us but for some reason he is not right. I am not a doctor, physiologist or a trainer but something is off and when it affects out team and scoring I am going to point it out. This is the best Steeler team I have seen in awhile and Ben is our weak link and that shouldn't be the case. Question for anyone is there a site you can go to to see all of Ben's throw? I would like to look at each and every one to count which I feel were good and which I feel were bad.....
     
  11. Steel_Elvis

    Steel_Elvis Staff Member Mod Team

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    I think the real answer is somewhere in between the extremes being espoused by many out here. I think it takes a bit of denial to not see deficiencies. He’s not the same passer that he was 2 years ago. Forget the deep ball - I’m talking about shorter and intermediate range passes that need to be fit into a window with some zip. It seems to me that a higher percentage of those passes are sailing, like you’d expect to see when the ball is being released a split second too soon.... or if there’s a leg or shoulder injury (or after effects from one or the other) affecting his release. He has recently torn ligaments in his throwing shoulder (Jan 2016) and has two recent injuries to the same knee (sprained MCL in 2015 and torn meniscus in 2016). I don’t know if any of this is why a lot of throws are sailing on him, but it’s a logical explanation.

    What I also find concerning is the decision making that we sometimes see. It was flat out awful in the 4th quarter of the Bears game when we consistently squandered potential game winning drives because Ben was forcing the ball downfield in 3rd and short situations when the open guy underneath was obviously available. He’s done a lot better recently in this area.

    Still, despite all of this he has had some very good games recently, and has made key plays to help us win games. He no longer seems to be able to put the team on his shoulders and win a game, but we’ve seen solid performances in which he does what he’s capable of to compliment the rest of the team and get the ball in the hands of our playmakers quickly so that they can do what they do. If he keeps on playing like he’s played the past few weeks, I feel pretty good that the other parts of the offense will continue to gel and we’ll be a 25 ppg kind of offense the rest of the way, which will be adequate if our defense continues to play well. In other words, he’s still capable of leading us to #7 if he plays smart, does what he’s capable of, and consistently gets the ball to our playmakers early in the play. However, he can also be the reason why we don’t get #7 if he tries to do too much. Don’t be a hero Ben, just be a QB.

    That’s how I see it anyway.
     
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  12. SDOT

    SDOT Well-Known Member

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    I've been to 2 games this season. I'm not watching with binoculars or anything. I'm sure watching on TV is just as good or not better. I'm not looking at his mechanics. I'm just looking at ball placement in correlation to the receivers he's trying to get it to. He's always had a tendency to throw a little high on the road or when under pressure.

    He had one really bad game and hasn't put up some 4-5 TD games because of miscommunication, drops, and red zone issues. Also, the o-line hasn't been as good in pass blocking. Run blocking is amazing but the pass blocking isn't as good as the previous years. He's on pace for 4k yards which is more than the previous two seasons. Already got as many 40+ bombs in 8 games as he had all last year.
     
  13. SDOT

    SDOT Well-Known Member

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    So two passes out of the whole game. The one to DHB is similar to Rogers where he hit him right in the hands and dropped it. So I can see why 1) Ben decided to lead the receiver a little more. 2) I bet he thought DHB would be faster 3) No reps with DHB. That should be Bryant.

    I mean that's the issue. You got a RB who holds out all off-season and throws the offense out of sync for the first 3-4 weeks. You got your #1 WR crying about the ball so you come in with a gameplan targeting him 18 times against the best pass defense in the league. You got your #2 attacking teammates on social media and getting benched and now somebody Ben hasn't seen in 8 weeks is being thrown in.
     
  14. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    No not 2 passes these were the ones just off the top of my head from the last game, pick a game and watch it.....any game this year Ben has been way off. You are the only person that I have talked to either here or in person that thinks Ben is having a good season. The whole no reps with DHB doesn't hold water cause what about previous years when he threw to Hamilton, Rogers and Ayers?

    As much as I hate busting on Ben the truth is the truth he rarely hits his guys in stride, not once or twice but almost all the time. Instead of blaming the RB who held out or the #1 wr who is crying how about the guy throwing the ball? You know the same one who has one foot in retirement and didn't know if he was coming back this year??? These are all grown men...well kinda Juju is a mature 20 but the whole needing time and reps when these guys play football for a living don't fly. Muscle memory is a great thing and is something that stays with you and you don't lose over night or an off season.....maybe with age and maybe that is what we are seeing with Ben. Don't know and don't care just want to see the passes where they need to be, and yes the drops don't help but they are few and far between when you compare to how many balls Ben is throw bad. JMO.
     
  15. THREE RIVER SHIVER

    THREE RIVER SHIVER Member

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    Jim92 let me throw a few names at ya.....Neil Odonnel,Kordell Stewart,Mike Tomzak,Kent Graham,Tommy Maddox,Bubby brister........nuff said ...quit bitchin......
     
  16. mgsmooth

    mgsmooth Well-Known Member

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    So you’re telling me there’s a chance...
     
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  17. SGSteeler

    SGSteeler Well-Known Member

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    Brett Favre? Cam Newton has been in the league less time and has taken twice the beating Ben has due to his play style.

    Ben was never a running QB. Sure he played behind a couple suspect O-Lines and held the ball forever... He took more hits than most, but it's not like he was a running QB or anything. He got sacked more. I think the whole "he has taken a beating in his career" thing is overblown.
     
  18. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Farve yes, Cam no. Farve was sacked 525 times, Cam 243 and Ben 466. The times Cam has been hit running the ball doesnt make up that difference IMO. And while Ben isnt a running QB as Cam is, his sand lot style invited a ton of punishment too.

    Ben has been beaten to a pulp. That 466 doesnt even include all the times hes been knocked down that dont count as sacks and late hits that are never called against him.

    We agree usually but we're not on the same page on this one, thats for sure :lolol:
     
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  19. Busman

    Busman

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    Just read about bens hideout. Very cool
     
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  20. jeh1856

    jeh1856

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    Wasn’t exactly his strong suit to begin with.
     
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  21. Diamond

    Diamond Well-Known Member

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    Before I speculate about Ben, he always plays his best ball in November and December, so i'll wait and see how these last 8 games go before I call him washed up....
     
  22. SDOT

    SDOT Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, he wanted to retire and I don't blame him. Then he comes back and RB is out all off-season and everybody is crying. You know how bad this team would be if Landry Jones was the QB? Should be grateful. Also, I don't think he's having a good season but I'm also looking at all the factors. It's not as bad as everybody is making it out to be and given what I said just above. There's no reason to bash him.
     
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  23. The Glory Days

    The Glory Days Well-Known Member

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    If Ben was throwing better, we'd be putting up 30-40 a game.
     
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  24. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    First of all without Ben we are done I have said that over and over. Another thing why can't we talk about Ben playing good or bad without people thinking we are bashing him. When he plays good he gets props when he plays bad he doesn't. This is what a message board is about. I am happy as **** to be 6-2 with a QB who I KNOW can play a heck of a lot better and when he does the way this team is playing we will be unstoppable. But Ben has to clean up his game, he needs to stop missing wide open guys and he needs to hit his receivers in stride most of the time. The only reason it is not as bad as people are making it out to be is cause we are 6-2 but we could easily be 4-4 if not worse.

    Once again I will say I am and have been a Ben supporter. I am thankful what he has done over his career and the toughness he has displayed. However if calling out his bad play is bashing him then I guess that is what I am doing. We can get away with mediocre play now but come playoff time we won't. jmo
     
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  25. SGSteeler

    SGSteeler Well-Known Member

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    Cam's rushing doesn't make up for the 230 sack difference? He's rushed the ball 758 times in his career... he's literally been hit twice as many times as Ben. Plus the quality of hit is way worse for Newton. He was used as a power runner in the red zone. He took way worse hits. He actually complained quite a bit to the league about getting smoked late a lot because he was seen more as a runner than a QB. It's not close. Newton has been hit way worse and twice as many times as Ben.

    Relative to other QB's ben has been hit more, but it's just sacks. He has hardly taken abuse that doesn't allow him to play into his late 30's with ease. As long as he is willing and his arm is capable, he can play.
     

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