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AFC North over the next 5-7 years

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Benny Lava, Oct 25, 2021.

  1. KMM

    KMM Well-Known Member

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    Cowher made it to one SB before Ben in 12 years and won zero SBs and most of that was before Peyton and Brady when one would think it would have been easier to make the SB. If you're going to count not winning SB's then you it's not once every 5 years a single team in the league gets lucky. It's probably more like 1 team every year, on average, finds a QB, that eventually turns them into a perennial SB contender. Even in the era of Brady, we had two Mannings, Rodgers, Ben, Brees, Wilson, Warner, Rivers, and Ryan. These guys were franchise QBs whose teams made it to SBs. Well, except Rivers.

    The point is the franchise QB is a lot more common than once every 5 years for a single team and that those teams with a franchise QB stay relatively competitive for a longer duration than teams without a franchise QB. And let's be honest, no GM's long-term vision for the team is "I'm going to build based on a defense so good I won't need a top notch QB." That's a default position when you don't have a top notch QB, not a strategic decision.

    Just as a check I went back to 1995 to see what years a franchise QB was drafted:
    1995: Steve McNair
    1996: No one
    1997: No one
    1998: Peyton
    1999:McNabb, Culpepper was good but probably a miss
    2000: Brady
    2001: Vick, Brees
    2002: No one
    2003: Palmer
    2004:Eli, Rivers, Ben
    2005: Rodgers,
    2006: No one
    2007:No one
    2008:Ryan, Flacco
    2009: No one, although Stafford might be close
    2010:No one
    2011: Tough call on Cam Newton. Did go to a SB, but in the end...
    2012: Wilson. Tough call on Andrew Luck
    2013: No one
    2014: No one. Derek Carr is the closest
    2015: No one.
    2016: Prescott
    2017:Mahomes
    2018: Allen, Jackson (Josh and Lamar, not the country singer)
    2019: Murray
    2020: Burrow and Herbert certainly look the part right now.

    That's 21 or so, we can quibble on some, in 26 years, so around 0.8/year that I would call franchise trajectory changing.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
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  2. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    I liked everything You said , but ...2018 on down. We don't really know what these guys are. Just like I could point 2 other Years You named where Guy we seen only that long were thought 2 be great, or franchise Guys , but turned out not 2 Be. I noticed You said as much about Burrows, and Herbert...I believe You could say that about the rest up to 2018.JMO
     
  3. Animus

    Animus Well-Known Member

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    Game winning post. QB is obviously the most sought after position with miss after miss after miss. Which makes me all the more convinced that the NFL needs to set up a DLeague. If you're going to invest that much money into a QB, you might as well develop him as opposed to drafting one every 3 years. How many misses have the Browns, Jets and Dolphins gone through these past 15 years. And as for the Steelers, it just convinces me more to have a strong OLine and running game in place, then draft the QB of the future especially in a draft year where there likely isn't a single potential franchise changing QB in it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
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  4. The Sodfather

    The Sodfather Well-Known Member

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    Fewer career TD passes than interceptions, for one thing. Namath also had more picks than TD's, but he had better career stats. However, as much as people want to say he had great teams around him, and he did, he was still MVP of SB XV. I don't know why Namath gets in and Plunkett doesn't, not that Broadway Joe isn't deserving.
     
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  5. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    It's hard 2 get 2 two SBs let alone win them.
    Also ...I can't think of one SB winning team ..that wasn't a Great Team, or Qb didn't have a Great Team around them.:shrug:
     
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  6. MeanJoeBlue

    MeanJoeBlue Well-Known Member

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    I'm starting to lose track of what you are trying to argue.
    Sometimes you are talking about franchise QBs, sometimes about SB contenders, when the two groups are not identical.

    Anyways, I am going to focus on 3 points from your last post, that I quoted above.

    (1) Why would it be easier to reach the SB without Peyton and Brady around? I don't see that as being obvious.
    (2) You listed 14 non-franchise QBs winning the SB. It seemed easier to stick to your choice, instead of widening it to include any QBs that reached the SB.

    (3) That is really going to muddy the waters.
    It is not obvious what you mean by "perennial SB contender". Other people are likely to have different definitions.

    I'm guessing you don't mean "making it to the SB", because Rodgers has only done that once his entire career.
    It also seems like "making the playoffs" isn't part of your definition.
    You included Ryan and Rivers on your list, and their teams have missed the playoffs more often than making it.

    If, as you said earlier
    "The success of a franchise basically starts and stops at the QB position in today's NFL."
    ... then it doesn't seem like "perennial SB contenders" would fail so much.
     
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  7. KMM

    KMM Well-Known Member

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    You were the one who deemed Cowher before Ben a success. That's why I widened it.

    It honestly doesn't matter. Your just being argumentative and picking nits to try to defend a point that anyone (including yourself) knows is at its core, mistaken.

    Success in the NFL starts at the QB position. If you have a good one, you stand a chance. If you don't, your chances are small.
     
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  8. MeanJoeBlue

    MeanJoeBlue Well-Known Member

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    Does someone else want to speak up about how HoF coach Cowher was not a success in the 12 years before Ben?

    (I'll step away from this argument.)
     
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  9. nor

    nor Well-Known Member

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    small correction. brady didn't take a pay cut to help the patriots with the salary cap. brady and the patriots cheated to get around the salary cap. the 'pay cut' that brady took was paid to an athletic training company to train brady at training camp time. the owner of the athletic training company that was paid to train brady? ....was none other than Tom Brady.....
    he got his money that way, the patriots took the salary cap savings and used it on other good players to keep them. getting around the salary cap
     
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  10. Maddog78

    Maddog78 Well-Known Member

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    Winning division titles with guys like O'Donnell, Stewart, Maddox, and Tomczak was a success.
     
  11. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Look no further than our own team for proof. Ben has covered up the deficiencies in other areas for years. He is the reason they have had a chance every single year.

    Grab the QB first before building the rest because you’ll take years building up the rest and then could waste it while looking for a QB.

    Mean while a franchise QB like Ben has played for nearly 20 years, you can build a team around that before time runs out.
     
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  12. jeh1856

    jeh1856 Beer is good

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    Success? Damn near a miracle.
     
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  13. Maddog78

    Maddog78 Well-Known Member

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    The Steelers Depot guys were talking about the Jay Glazer report stating that Tomlin doesn't want to start over with a rookie, coupled with his comments about how important QB mobility is.

    They parlayed that into a scenario where Rodgers and Wilson would be too expensive next year, leading the Steelers into settling for someone like Brissett, Mariota, or Tyrod Taylor.

    I'll lose my lunch if the Steelers settle for a middling castoff instead of investing properly into the most important position on the field, unless it's as a stop-gap for a first round pick, of course.
     
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  14. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    I kind of agree...Does that count???:shrug:. LoL.
    Though when We got Ben He was the missing piece....So He didn't have 2 at first flounder behind a weak team, and lose His confidence.
    If We grabbed even a Great Rookie right now...with How the O line is , and the other issues...Well We could Ruin Him...That's what I worry about. JMO
     
  15. HeinzMustard

    HeinzMustard Well-Known Member

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    Steelers had a solid team when Roethlisberger was drafted in '04. That team went 6-10 the year prior... but the pieces were in place, plus LeBeau and Whisenhunt were hired as coordinators. The sleeping giant was awakened.
     
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  16. nor

    nor Well-Known Member

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    QB is important, yes. But for decades, the steelers were strongest at the most important position of all......owner.
     
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2021
  17. KMM

    KMM Well-Known Member

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    Watch out.

    MeanJoeBlue will disagree with you.
     
  18. Wardismvp

    Wardismvp Well-Known Member

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    O'donnell could actually play the QB position. If he doesn't win in GB
    the Steelers were never going to the Superbowl that year.
     
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  19. Maddog78

    Maddog78 Well-Known Member

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    You're going to have to jog my memory on that one. They lost in GB on the last day of the season when Thigpen dropped the winning TD.

    Neil was serviceable if everything worked - protection, route, run game - but things got sketchy when anything broke down.

    I think Mason is a modern day O'Donnell in that regard.
     
  20. MeanJoeBlue

    MeanJoeBlue Well-Known Member

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    Why would I disagree with that?

    What I said earlier:
    "No one is saying that you pass on a franchise QB when you (can get) one.
    My point is that they are hard to find, and may not be on hand when you need one.
    Other people are pointing out that, until a franchise QB comes along, it is still possible to win a Super Bowl without one."


    More likely is that you would disagree.
    You've said:
    "The success of a franchise basically starts and stops at the QB position in today's NFL."

    If success "starts and stops" at the QB position, then what Blast is saying ("building the rest", "build a team around") wouldn't be necessary. You'd be able to have success without a good defense, rushing game, offensive line, etc.
     
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  21. MeanJoeBlue

    MeanJoeBlue Well-Known Member

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    I've wondered about that in the past.
    (As in, I don't know, and was genuinely curious.)
    Does Mason have to be the next Ben to stick around?
    Could they have playoff success if he was just a slightly better Neil (like a better TD/INT ratio)?

    The key there is how much salary cap would be freed up with a 2nd or 3rd tier starting QB?
    Something like $15M more, that wouldn't be spent on a top tier QB, fills in a lot of weaknesses or gives you more strengths for the other parts of the team.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2021
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  22. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    You are quite right ...Thigpen turned , bounced it off His leg, and Dropped it. Should Have Won that game though.
     
  23. Wardismvp

    Wardismvp Well-Known Member

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    I should have researched I stand corrected, Neil was still as you described serviceable.
     
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