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A deeper look at Tomlin

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Stone, Mar 1, 2020.

  1. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

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    Everything isn’t his fault but his job title makes him responsible. Unless you fire the whole team and staff instead....jmo
     
  2. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    Ben would have been dead if he didn't "retire", I don't care what anyone says Haley saved Ben. Ben went from one of most sacked under BA to one of the least sacked under TH.
     
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  3. The Glory Days

    The Glory Days Well-Known Member

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    I can agree with that. It's not all his "fault." Fine line between fault and responsibility. He doesn't fumble, but he's tasked with making sure fumbles don't happen. He's tasked with the team being prepared every time they take the field, not playing down to opponents, and managing all controllable aspects of the game. Unfortunately, more times than not, he has not lived up to those tasks.
     
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  4. Disco1981

    Disco1981 Well-Known Member

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    How do you cut Barron, But not Foster?...Barron brought stuff to the table...Foster is an embarrassment who swelled to over 400 pounds, and couldn't even get out of his stance...Tomlin favoritism at its finest if they keep this old fat slob
     
  5. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    Colbert is the GM :shrug:, Foster will probably still get cut.
     
  6. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    I think nobody is safe, now that we tagged Bud moves are going to be made just to get under the cap. We will sign some kind of bargain FA we always do and add the money for the draft class. Foster will get cut I am sure of it but the one guy that will tick me right off if we don't cut is Big Dan. I know people are gonna say we need him cause we are getting Digger back, I say bs cause what do we need him for? He is totally worthless on the field so don't tell me we need him cause he offers nothing......did I say NOTHING??????? 1.5m saving that is his best trait for us right now........ok rant over lmao
     
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  7. Thigpen82

    Thigpen82

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    Like I said, it’s been clear what your point was from the OP. I’ve raised some possible objections to it.

    I”m not sure I’d see them as “excuses”, because they aren’t raised to defend Tomlin - they’re raised to question some of your assertions.

    All in good humour, but if you didn’t want the point picked over, why post it as a question?
     
  8. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    Well Foster just retired so maybe that was what was taking so long.......
     
  9. Stone

    Stone Well-Known Member

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    The good thing is that it's all in good humor and it's all just football discussion:drinks:

    Here is where I believe it keeps getting sidetracked. I asserted that Tomlin hasn't done much with what he's had and rather than telling why you, or anyone else, believse that Tomlin "has" done well with what he's had, I have only seen attempts to points out where small bits and pieces of my assertion might be wrong.

    For example, if it got up to 75 degrees yesterday, I could say "wow, it was hot yesterday" and someone would point out that at 12:01 AM yesterday it wasn't hot....which is nothing but argumentative.

    You brought up other great offenses but that doesn't change the fact that Tomlin what what was considered the best WR in the game, the best RB in the game, an elite O-line, and an elite QB and got little or nothing out of them.

    So what I ask is, rather than pointing why you believe Ramon Foster may have had a bad season or some other nit to pick, tell me why you believe Tomlin has done a great job with what he's had?

    Or the original question, tell me 3 coaches who have ever been given as much as Tomlin in a career with one team; not why other coaches who inherited great teams failed.
     
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  10. BURGH43STEL

    BURGH43STEL Well-Known Member

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    That certainly isn't a fact. If that were true Tomlin would had been out of a job a long time ago. What seems difficult for some people regarding this team is the ability to distinguish when the team has a heading coaching problem vs the mistakes that take place on the field by the players.

    Ben throws INT's you can't fault Tomlin for those mistakes. Players don't block or make a tackle you can't simply fault the HC for those mistakes. Some times you have to give other guys credit too. The other guys get paid too.

    If you want to hold the HC responsible for everything then that is your prerogative. I don't hold the HC responsible for everything. Especially when my eyes tell me the players were responsible for X, Y, or Z mistakes on the flied.

    There are also other members within the organization that have jobs that can impact the quality of the team and out comes of the games.
     
  11. BURGH43STEL

    BURGH43STEL Well-Known Member

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    Some people believe that the HC has all encompassing power of the decisions of the team.
     
  12. The Glory Days

    The Glory Days Well-Known Member

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    I get what you're saying. But we're just on opposite sides of the coin on this one. I don't live my life diverting blame or responsibility from myself. I didn't coach in high school and college diverting blame or responsibility from myself. Mike Tomlin, by the very nature of his position, is responsible for the product put on the field...all of it, not just parts, no just the good stuff. If you want to credit him for the succeses, you must credit the failures.

    And you are going to say that I don't credit his successes. I do. Unfortunately, his job is to be successful. His job is not to fail. So when he succeeds, it is simply him doing his job. It is expected. I'm not saying it is easy, mind you. I'm saying that it is expected. Conversely, when he fails, it is a failure to complete the expected task, per his job description.

    I guarantee you that his initial interview for the HC position was geared around his vision for success (ie., winning superbowls). I also guarantee you that there was no discussion about failure or contingency plans for producing an 8-8 team.

    His job is to win championships. When he doesn't, he isn't doing what he was hired to do.
     
  13. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    Only Belichick and Bill O'Brien does
     
  14. BURGH43STEL

    BURGH43STEL Well-Known Member

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    You are on the extreme end of the coin. I am not. Mike Tomlin isn't the only individual responsible for the product put on the field. The Steelers ORGANIZATION is responsible for the product put on the field.

    Tomlin never diverted blame or responsibility. Tomlin understands that he needs to help this team get the job done regardless of the circumstances he and the team faces. He preaches that to his players. It's one of his philosophical views. It's also one of his strengths as a leader and coach. That being said, as a fan I can take a rational look at why the team didn't succeed out side of the HC.

    For me it's not only about winning championships. I understand that the success of a team can be measured in different ways. I also can recognize the reasons a team can fails to win. Simply blaming the HC for every is short sighted.

    I can understand people who believe that it's time for a change at the HC position. I don't agree with people who spit nonsense to prove Tomlin is an incompetent or bad coach.

    Any good organization is going to take a look at everything to see what realistic changes can be made to improve the team. Based on what I saw on the field last year there are a few areas that the team should address. Will there be players available to address those areas? Will the organization have the money to spend? I believe they will make attempts to improve the team.
     
  15. The Glory Days

    The Glory Days Well-Known Member

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    We can go round and round about this...and probably will. I appreciate your passion for your side of the argument, and I don't fault you for sticking to your guns on this.

    Couple things, however.

    The HC is given a hand to play, and it's not random. The ORGANIZATION is responsible for giving him good cards. What he does with them is on him. He coaches the team, disciplines the team, and is ultimately responsible for EVERY play called. If his OC calls a bootleg on 4th and 20, guess who is going to get the blame. The HC. But Glory, MT didn't actually call the play, he's not responsible for the outcome. BS. It's HIS team.

    I totally understand and accept that "**** happens." I believe MT is a hard-working coach who tries his best to put a winning product on the field. I don't fault him for injuries, broken plays, murphy's law, or even isolated player gafs (fumbles, tripping over shoelaces, missed assignments, etc.). But I said "isolated." Those things happen because professional athletes are human and make mistakes. But when a RB gets a case of the dropsies, the HC must make a decision on how to handle it. Bench him? Make him lead block for his understudy? Run the dropsies out of him? Who knows. But a decision must be made for the betterment of the team. If the RB is simply left to continue to fumble away games, the HC is responsible for that.

    And this goes beyond a single player. Recurring problems of any type need to be addressed. Starting slow is a recurring problem. Being unprepared is a recurring problem. Playing down to the level of inferior opponents is a recurring problem. Getting exposed in the playoffs is a recurring problem. Being outcoached is a recurring problem. See, all those things have HC stamped all over them and they do not happen because of dropping a pass here or there or a pre-snap penalty or missed assignment. They are systemic issues that keep great teams from being great. And when they continue to happen even as the roster changes year after year, it becomes blatantly obvious that it's not the roster that is the problem. And it's not the organization, as you would like to believe.

    When I coached, I didn't blame my teams or my athletic directors when we didn't achieve goals. I looked at what I was doing and how I and my coaching staff could improve to make the team better. If I needed something from an AD, I asked for it. If they gave it to me, I used it. If I didn't get it, I found a way to improve without it.

    A good organization doesn't look far beyond key positions to make changes. Organizational structure is a pyramid of pyramids. Ownership is the small point at the top and it broadens on the way down. Organizations are not oval. And the top of the pyramid doesn't burden itself dealing with the bottom. So no, the organization doesn't look at everything to make changes, unless you are referring to the organization as every member of itself. In that case, you're just wading around a giant pool of people with blacked-out goggles on, bumping into each other. In order for an organization to flourish, there must be a hierarchy, chain of command, and accountability at each level. The HC sits over coaches and players and, with the GM, bridges the gap between them and ownership. And that position bears the burden of the success of the product on the field.

    So if you continue to feel I'm spitting nonsense to prove MT is out of his depth, you aren't listening to what I'm saying. There's no nonsense-spit coming from my keyboard.
     
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  16. Stone

    Stone Well-Known Member

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    Tomlin certainly can't be held directly responsible for fumbles or missed plays but his buddy-buddy approach with the players can lead directly to sloppy performance, lack of preparedness, lack of effort, etc.

    A perfect example of this is Belichick, if you commit a stupid penalty, you come out of the game; with Tomlin, you can commit multiple stupid penalties and all you get is that blank stare in the opposite direction which sends the message that he is ignoring you. Everybody can't coach the same way, or be the same people, but Tomlin's "players coach" stigma has allowed of lot of talent to be wasted.
     
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  17. BURGH43STEL

    BURGH43STEL Well-Known Member

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    You entitled to your opinion. Only people's opinions that matter are Tomlin's bosses.
     
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  18. BURGH43STEL

    BURGH43STEL Well-Known Member

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    This is the type of nonsense that I'm talking about.
     
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  19. Stone

    Stone Well-Known Member

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    If you consider this nonsense it explains why you defend Tomlin:smiley1:

    Do you also consider it nonsense when people say the sun rises in the east and sets in the west?
     
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  20. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    Not when you are posting on a message board.........
     
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  21. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

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    I don’t care what side of the fence you’re on in this debate. The fact of the matter is MT and KC asses are tightly strapped to this runaway, restructured ,2 year miracle plan. It’s now SB or bust more than ever. They don’t get it done especially with Brady out of the way, it’s time for them both to go. No more excuses. There’s no lifetime contracts ...
     
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  22. Stone

    Stone Well-Known Member

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    That all sounds like common sense but I think Tomlin has carte blanch as long as he wants it......he will never be fired from the Steelers.
     
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  23. NY STEELERFAN

    NY STEELERFAN Well-Known Member

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    Not 1 person is to blame but in the end who is responsible.........the HC and GM. Look around the league for proof, why do we see so many job openings every year, why is it from losing teams? You are right we have had a ton of talent on this team and we are now 2 straight years without the playoffs. We need to win or heads should roll, they won't but they should.
     
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  24. Thigpen82

    Thigpen82

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    We're just going around in circles now! You're not getting answers because you've laid out the question with too much exaggeration for it to be answered in a sensible way. It's not nitpicking or sidetracking to point out that there are serious flaws in what you're asking. The thread is called "a deeper look", so logically you should be looking at these kind of details.

    The problems really boil down to two things:

    1. Was Tomlin was actually "given" as much as you make out? I raised some potential objections to that view, but your response was just that "Cowher was worried about his wife", and then a re-assertion that it was a team that could do nothing but win the SB. We can't answer your question if it's not clear what Tomlin was, in fact, "given".

    2. What should be realistically viewed as a "great job", given similar scenarios in the history of the league? On this, I've already given a direct response to your question: there are few coaches who have had the longevity of Tomlin because most who are given great teams fail. That fact in itself challenges the assumption within your question, that Tomlin has somehow ridden on good fortune.

    But I've also already given two examples of those who are comparable to Tomlin's whole career - Andy Reid at the Eagles and Tom Flores at the Raiders. And I think in comparison to those two, Tomlin has done better than Reid did in Philly, and somewhat similar to Flores (Flores won more SBs, but also suffered season collapses - and retired much earlier).

    I'm not doing all this as some kind of fortification of Tomlin's reputation. I'll happily say that Tomlin has faults and failings. I'm also keen to be realistic in any appraisal of his tenure. There's a big space in between winning the SB and "doing little or nothing"... we all want SBs, but to act like it's an either/or is bizarre.
     
  25. Stone

    Stone Well-Known Member

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