Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Stone, Mar 1, 2020.
Thread is full of cases that disprove your claims but I know nobody will meet your criteria. Your vague "handed what Tomlin has & unending supply of HOFers that will miss the hall because of Popcorn" gives no room for disagreeing with you Stoned.
I guess it's just easier to claim impossible criteria than to actually try to debate it lunatic. If you believe my criteria is flawed, prove me wrong instead of just crying foul because you know you can't.
Sometimes it pays off to do your own homework Stunned.
You keep saying I am wrong but you are not willing to offer any proof? Come on man!
I think it’s impossible to debate this subject with you because you’ve constructed a narrow subset of criteria to specifically fit your narrative. Because Tomlin was “handed” a talented roster and some good assistant coaches, he sucks because he ONLY made it to 2 Super Bowls and only won 1 in his first 4 years. Because he had the 3 B’s for a few years (I think you said something like they were some of the greatest talent the NFL has ever seen), and failed to win additional championships, he sucks. If you want to talk about the greatest talent the league has ever seen, are you including the 2nd and 3rd WRs in the 2017 AFCCG? Sammy Coates and Cobi Hamilton? We lost Bell after 6 touches in that game as well. How about our stellar coverage personnel in the game? Ross Cockrell, Artie Burns, Robert Golden, Mike Mitchell, Sean Davis, and an aging, slow Willie Gay. The 2018 playoff loss to Jacksonville was inexcusable, so I’m not going to defend it, but he was still saddled with a number of weaker defenders, especially with Shazier gone and Spence in his place. If you want to go back further, remember entering the 2014-15 playoffs with Dri Archer and a newly signed Ben Tate as RBs because the front office did nothing when Blount was cut? Remember at around that same time when Valentino Blake was a starting corner? Tomlin has had a lot of talent to work with, but the front office has saddled him with his share of inadequate talent as well. He’s also had to overcome key injuries at critical moments during more than one season.
I’m not the biggest Tomlin fan out there by any means, but reality is far less negative than you make it out to be.
It's not a challenge to prove whether or not Tomlin sucks. It's a simple statement that I don't know of "any" head coach who has ever been handed as much, over a career, as Tomlin has. And based on that belief, I don't put a very high value on the non-losing seasons. It's a simple matter of perspective; I am 100% convinced that his accomplishments are not anything to brag about when you consider what he's been given to work with.
Again, it's like comparing someone's net worth without considering if they worked for it or won the lottery. The guy who won the lottery should not be bragged about as being a good financial manager.
I have ignored this thread all together however I felt the need today to pop in here. I have not read the whole thing just this page and your post caught my eye. You bring up great points here and I have a question about it and I am not taking a shot at anyone but just asking. You are saying the front office didn't give MT help to replace these Injured players correct? For example Shazier and Blount(cut), how do we know it was the front office? I mean wouldn't the head coach be part of that? I feel like there has to be equal blame on both sides, GM and HC. If MT asked for players and KC didn't get him them that makes a ton of difference, however we don't know that right? So how can we give MT a pass on these points you bring up? Again I am not trying to sling mud here on MT I am asking a simple question. My feelings of MT are known, I am not a fan but I have avoided this thread because of that, the MT for and against has been beat to death and I am not into it anymore.
I don't understand the narrative behind thinking that Jacksonville was a terrible team, when they weren't.
Bortles had a below average game (compared to his regular season) vs. the Steelers, so he didn't beat the team.
Turnovers and their running game (#1 in regular season rushing yards) beat the Steelers.
(If anything, Bortles played much better the next week, matching Brady in stats.)
Jacksonville had an offense about equal to the Steelers (5 in points / 6 in yards, versus 8 in points / 3 in yards).
Their defense was better (#2, versus the Steelers being somewhere around #6).
If Jacksonville didn't choke in the 4th quarter versus NE, they would have gone to the Super Bowl.
They were leading with less than 3 minutes to go.
Earlier in the quarter, the Pats had 3rd and 18, and the Jaguars DBs blew their assignments. (Or someone free-lanced at the wrong time.) If they make the stop on that play (instead of giving up a 21 yard pass), they win that game.
Bortles being inconsistent did not make them a bad team.
I can think of one example....when they brought in Sean Spence off his couch to play instead of going with LJ Fort who was playing good at the time. That was clearly a coaches decision (MT) and a horrific one at that. I also feel the Blount situation could of been avoided if they just gave the guy some carries instead of running Bell into the ground. That is a coaches decision and philosophy of running your RBs into the ground. The bottom line is the HC is responsible for the teams failures whether completely justified or not.
I agree with this but was curious as to the thinking of other posters as who has control and input of personal.
My intent was not to be combative or prove that I am right over others, I'm not interested in proving that Tomlin is a bum, I simply challenged anyone to provide three examples of coaches who have been given the good fortune that Tomlin has.
Some have pointed out a coach who was given a great team, but that great team had a bad organization around it and was destined to failure.
Some have pointed out numerous things which Tomlin has had to deal with such as injury, but that wasn't the question.
Some have pointed out a dream team scenario that existed for 2-3 years, Tomlin has been given a contender, followed by dream team like talent, sandwiched around above average talent.......all encased in possibly the most stable organization in the NFL.
I honestly don't believe that any coach, ever, has been given the exceptional opportunity that Tomlin has and thus, I also believe he has not done much given the circumstances.
I would love for someone to point out a solid comparison because it might make me realize that I have mis-judged the circumstances and therefore make me feel better about the upcoming season and the Steelers in general.
I understand and I am not agreeing with you or disagreeing with you. All I am saying is this has been beat to death and I didn't wanna play, lol. I have pretty much the same stance as you and have had some fiery back and forth with some and that isn't what I want to do. I am now ready for the draft, FA and salary cap stuff. There is enough people who like to fight about that and think their opinion is right and everyone else's is wrong no need for me to throw in the Tomlin stuff too......lol.
Maybe I presented it wrong. LOL There is never going to be harmony when it comes to Tomlin.
There are a number of factors that have gone into the Steelers ONLY being an above average to very good team instead of an elite team during Tomlin’s tenure. Tomlin’s own role in that is just part of the picture. The front office has been good, but has had its share of failures. Untimely key injuries have also been a key factor.
Help me understand. Please explain this “dream team” of talent that your premise is built upon.
I don't understand these threads on Tomlin. I was once on board with this but the facts are he is our coach for as long as he wants to be and that's the end of the story. We can disagree with his game plans his methods but as long as there's a rooney alive and in the ownership group he's the man until he decides he wants to move on. So for the next 10 years or so you may as well settle in and enjoy the ride. You are of course free to post whatever you want but it makes no sense to me to be calling for his firing since that is never going to happen.
We've shown that taking one little price of a large premise doesn't work to accomplish anything other than disagreement. My point is that when you look at the "entire body of work", Tomlin has been blessed with more than any other coach, ever.
As far as the one little piece you asked about, while it makes no sense to debate one little piece in an over all concept, I think Bell, Brown, Ben and the O line we had, represent a pretty special team. But again, let's not pick one tiny little piece of the overall premise and see if we can argue about it?
Can you give me an example of any coach who has been given the overall opportunity that Tomlin has?
SE, I agree however you pointed out how it was the front office who didn't give MT the help he needed. I am asking is this true and how do you know, does KC only have input on the roster or does MT have a say as well? I am not trying to come at you and like I said I am not into all this MT love/hate stuff I am just curious as to what you know. Me personally do not believe MT doesn't have any say in personal.
Let's start with John Madden. What holes you shooting in that comparison? There are holes that can be shot but disorganization by Al Davis wasn't one at Madden's time.
Okay. Fair enough, minus a couple minor holes.
Completely different era of football.
With what Madden had, he had a .763 % in regular season and .563 % in post season and was in the playoffs 80% of his seasons. Tomlin's corresponding numbers are .642% and .533 % and in the playoffs 61% of his seasons.
Let's say, just for the sake of discussion, we call that even. Name two more?
Madden was better than Tomlin with what he was given imo. They both inherited a SB caliber team & always fell just short with a few exceptions. Both were perennial playoff contenders with a few teams they couldn't beat. Madden had more AFCCGs I believe so I'll give you Tomlin didn't measure up to Madden.
John Hairball inherited a SB contender & a good organization (the old Browns). What has he done better than Tomlin?
Harbaugh inherited a very good team but I don't think he was subsequently given talent like Tomlin was.
Players don't dictate their playing time, Harrison and Blount both quit on the team.
Tomlin is living rent free in the OP head