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A deeper look at Tomlin

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by Stone, Mar 1, 2020.

  1. Stone

    Stone Well-Known Member

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    Tomlin is a polarizing subject and we see opinions that range from him being a candidate for the HOF to him being a useless bum.

    Some people love that he always has the Steelers competitive, maybe not at a Steeler level but, compared to the rest of the league.

    Some people hate that he has missed the playoffs, or been out-coached once he got there, far too often.

    Although I tend to be on the band-wagon of the latter, I know he would be hired instantly should the Steelers fire him and I also know that we could end up getting something worse, especially given the blasé attitude of Art II.

    BUT WHAT DO WE REALLY HAVE TO COMPARE HIM TO?

    Here is the one thing I thought we might discuss when we talk about his accomplishments or lack thereof.

    Although I am a student of the NFL to a small degree, I certainly can’t claim to be the least bit certain of this ……but……… to my recollection, I can’t think of any coach in modern football that has been given as much as Tomlin has. Barry Switzer was given a similar thing in Dallas, he won the SB with Jimmy Johnson’s team, much like Tomlin won it with Cowher’s team, and then he moved on.

    Can anyone think of a coach in the recent history of the NFL who was given a SB caliber team and then also given such extreme talent like Tomlin has? If so, let’s compare what they did with it.
     
  2. Steel Hog

    Steel Hog Well-Known Member

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    Another Tomlin post. Oh boy. You can't compare coaches because of so many variables involved its not apples to apples. Different times, rules, owners, division opponents, etc etc etc. MT is polarizing because he is being held up to each and everyone's expectations and they are all different. That's basically it. You either like what he's doing or don't based on what each individual deems acceptable. The only one's expectations that matter is a guy called 'Owner'.
     
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  3. Stone

    Stone Well-Known Member

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    I don't know. It's pretty easy to look at the coaches and say, nobody could succeed "in that organization" or "with that talent".....or to say....."anybody could succeed in that organization" ..... or ..... "with that talent". Granted there are a lot of coaches in the middle of the extremes but I honestly don't think there has been another coach who has had so much opportunity for success.

    For example, you could take a look at Marvin Lewis and say he had some incredibly talented teams but he could not amass much more than a .500 record and zero playoff wins.
     
  4. BigBensBigBong

    BigBensBigBong Well-Known Member

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    I think Tomlin has no defined identity as a coach. What do you think of when mulling over what kind of coach Noll or Cowher was? I remember things like game preparedness and stress on fundamentals. There was also smash-mouth football. They both had a brand, a well defined brand of coaching.
    Tomlin on the other hand has none of that. He is a negotiator, a players coach and no real brand so to speak. The NFL has changed a lot since even the days of Cowher. I guess the question is, is he just a refection of the times? Some players probably hate playing for a coach who is too strict. Is there value in having popularity with today`s players? My opinion is probably old school. I think Belicheat is old school and things go pretty good for him, except when he gets caught cheating.
     
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  5. 86WardsWay

    86WardsWay Well-Known Member

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    Underachiever. That's all I got.

    Can't believe I even read past "him being a candidate for the HOF".:rolleyes:
     
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  6. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    I agree that Tomlin is not a X's & 0's guy nor is he a great evaluator of talent. He is not a guy that can make lemonade out of lemons either.
    I see him as a Tony Dungy protege that is a molder of men more than a molder of championship play in his players. So there is one semi-recent comparison to what others have been given & what they did with it. Dungy had a SB caliber defense in TB that he couldn't get over the hump. He moved on to the Colts & was given an allpro QB that he built around. Same results as Tomlin, 2 SBs & 1 Lombardi. Competitive every year that Peyton played. Dungy let his players "tell the season story" through what plays to run on offense & being their friend.
    I'm in the 'will of the players' is what decides how far they go camp Stone. Our recent SB caliber offense just didn't score enough points to cover the defensive lag retiring allpro players created. Ben, while great, tries to do too much hogging the spotlight he adores. That attitude seemed to spread like a Corona virus throughout the allpro draft picks in the last ten years.
    Most SB winners are a team with a top defense that can run the ball. Teams that rely on the run moreso than the Raider like deep pass philosophy.
    You bring up a good argument about Noll & Cowher building their teams that had the will to be the best. Big Ben was a pup on Cowher's team that had excellent player leadership to absorb. That leadership is missing now & is where I point the finger myself. Ben needs someone to look up to & follow rather than calling the shots himself.
    Minkah looks like a player that can keep the defense focused on why they play the game. If Ben can get on board with a more balanced offense, I like our chances next year.

    I'll see if I can come up with more comparisons that shed some light on Mikey's success & failures Stone. Nice topic to bring up & have people's brains moving around nuerons.
     
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  7. Stone

    Stone Well-Known Member

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    But you did.....because you know there are those who think he is:huh:

    Underachiever is a great descriptor!
     
  8. Stone

    Stone Well-Known Member

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    Although I rated your post informative and I liked it, saying Tomlin is a molder of championship play is like saying Hitler was a pacifist.
     
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  9. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    I'm saying he is more of a babysitter than a John Wooden.
     
  10. Steel Hog

    Steel Hog Well-Known Member

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    Just to stir things up a little, what if he is actually an overachiever? Underachiever better describes what a very talented team did based on player potential. It also assumes MT is a great/ good coach and should have led this team to more playoff wins. What if the reality is he just isn't a tactical coach that has the capability/ or staff to go beyond basic football preparation and game management and that held the talent of this team back? Yet, was able to keep above .500 each year. Who knows? I go back to my previous post on expectations of what one expects MT to be capable of and measure that against results. There is no firm or final determination that will suit or fit everyone.
     
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  11. 86WardsWay

    86WardsWay Well-Known Member

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    He was basically given the keys to a Ferrari and handled it as though it was a VW Bus. His Standard is the Standard approach will not elevate any players to their utmost potential. Enjoy that single Lombardi that he picked up because I doubt they sniff another one any time soon.
     
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  12. CK 13

    CK 13 Well-Known Member

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    The defensive minded Head Coach allowed the degradation of the defense as well as Colbert. Finally last year with some miracle and luck the defense actually was above the line again, littered with 1st round picks.

    I'm not on the Tomlin bandwagon. He came into a situation with a franchise QB at his disposal and a killer defense. And we watched year after year the defense taking a step backward. They still had the offensive firepower.

    So lets see what Ol Popcorn does this year. We know he isn't going anywhere folks, Art II doesn't mind 8-8 and firing him would go against his Father. So buckle up.

    Right now we don't know where this team is headed. There are several teams in the AFC with the arrow pointing up. Will they be one of them?
     
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  13. The Glory Days

    The Glory Days Well-Known Member

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    First off, nice post @Stone.

    Okay, I see your point about Dungy, @Roonatic. I think you're on to something. The only thing is that Dungy built a team around a HOF qb and was successful. Tomlin acquired a HOF qb and lucked into a SB on his way to dismantling a potential dynasty. Dungy earned it. Tomlin did not.

    Both coaches do have a similar style. But Dungy is a more effective leader. He is a true communicator. He lead from the front and his players followed. Tomlin leads from behind and follows his players. I have no respect for that. That's why we have the problems we have. That's why we lose games we should win. That's why we are rarely prepared. That's why underperforming players remain on the field and suitable replacements sometimes remain on the bench.
     
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  14. TheTerribleOwl

    TheTerribleOwl Well-Known Member

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    Every time Tomlin is brought up all I can think is that this is a glaring case of you don't know what you have until it's gone. He's one of the best coaches in the NFL and it is asinine that so many Steelers fans act like he is incompetent.
     
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  15. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    :beathorse:
     
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  16. The Glory Days

    The Glory Days Well-Known Member

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    A replacement, or lack thereof, does not change his incompetence. I was one of his biggest fans for his first few seasons. The bloom fell off that rose, however, when it became painfully obvious just how out of his depth he was.

    Is there a better option? I have no idea.

    But again, pork is still pork even though the menu has a NY strip and a chicken sandwich on it.
     
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  17. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    Dungy didn't lead, he led by following. His success was Peyton Manning finally not choking in critical moments. Look at the Colts in his years at the helm, eeirly similiar to what we witnessed the last 5-6 years with Big Ben.
     
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  18. Steel_Elvis

    Steel_Elvis Staff Member Mod Team

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    Tomlin’s a good coach, maybe even very good, but there’s something lacking that keeps him from being great. Somehow his teams seem to consistently fail when things are going well. Like clockwork, it seems that if we go 13-3, we’ll be bounced in the first round of the playoffs (2017). If we win 6 straight to take over the division, we’ll lose 3 in a row to play ourselves right out of the playoffs (2018). If we miraculously get to 8-5 with the league’s worst QB play, we’ll falter when we just need a few more plays to get over the top, and make an improbable playoff run (2019). Tomlin’s teams consistently face down adversity and make improbable runs when they’re counted out, yet squander the good fortune they created. It’s pretty damn maddening. Why would this consistently happen? Does his leadership style inspire confidence when the chips are down, but also create overconfidence when the team is truly a front runner? I don’t know, but again - damn maddening.
     
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  19. dobbler-33

    dobbler-33 Well-Known Member

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    Decent write up... I guess AB wasn't tall enough to ride on Mike's "man molder" coaster hahahahaha
     
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  20. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

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    Good take. I think Tomlin is a good coach when it comes to leadership, motivation and players liking and wanting to play for him. The problem is he needs above average coordinators and position coaches to make him shine. I think the eventual success and failure of the team every year falls squarely on the players execution and production on the field. How rare is it that we sit back and reflect on a victory that Tomlin clearly had his hand in? I just don’t think the preparation and strategy is there and if the coordinators aren’t good enough to come up with a successful plan the game falls squarely on the players shoulders. I realize games come down to player’s performance but I think more often than not they aren’t put in the best position to succeed before the game starts and during. That’s why we play so many close games regardless of the opponent. Too much of it rides on the players talent and execution and not scheming and game planning. Too many games come down to a mistake late in a game when there are games that shouldn’t be that close late. Like they say if you let a inferior team hang around you’re giving them a even shot to pull out a win. So I think he’s a decent coach but he doesn’t have the impact a more hands on coach should have during a game or the planning involved leading up to a game. He let’s too much ride on his coordinators ,who are poor at the moment and the talent of his players. Coaching needs to meet talent. IMO it hasn’t....
     
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  21. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    Big Ben is like that too imo. He is much better when needing to score or pissed off about his mistakes. Chips are down? He usually plays great. Team ahead or early in the game? Overconfidence & mistakes.
     
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  22. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    I think Tomlin gave it his best shot.
     
  23. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    Didn't even wait until the first loss of the season for these threads :facepalm:
     
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  24. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    Tomlin bashing is a weekly thing round here. When he leaves the new sap will be bashed for not winning the SB. In ten years Tomlin will be admired for taking us to two of them.
     
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  25. BigBensBigBong

    BigBensBigBong Well-Known Member

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    But it is fun to beat this dead horse, LOL. Also helps relieve some frustration.
     
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