Discussion in 'The Bill Nunn Draft Room' started by 08SteelCurtain, Jan 21, 2016.
Revis is six feet even. Not 5 "11".
You said we weren't serious about winning now if we didn't draft a tall CB in the first round. I responded. I don't think I was being too literal at all. The statement just isn't true.
I don't blame you for wanting someone like Apple or Jackson. I think they are both good prospects. I personally think Apple is a better player, but I wouldn't hate it if we took Jackson 3. I just disagree shop
True, football is a game of inches... But it isn't just vertical inches, it's horizontal inches too. There are downfalls of being tall (like having tighter hips and less fluid backpedal) that could help lead to receivers gaining more separation in their breaks. Some guys gain inches by using their brains in film study or just have better instincts in general. I don't get hung up on height because of it. There's advantages and disadvantages to everything.
And it's not a joke at all. The majority of the top corners in the league are exactly 6 feet tall or shorter. There has to be a reason for that. I understand historically taller guys have been better, but today's NFL is different. You used to be able to just physically dominate receivers all over the field. That's why the tall guys had the advantage. You can't maul guys all over the field like you used to. Guys that can flip their hips and mirror routes better and guys that are explosive athletes are the ones that are the best cover guys now. As the rules continue to favor the offense I believe this trend will continue
I hear what your saying but I respectfully disagree.
The premier corners now are all 6 feet plus....
These other corners your referring to as "under six feet" who are they??? Their so good that I forgot their names? I didn't see any of them in the Super Bowl. I saw Talib and Norman. In the previous Super Bowl , I saw Revis and Sherman.
When you've got a guy who's six feet plus, your adapting to the trend now of the big wide receiver. None of our little hobbits can go man on man with A.J. Green, Calvin Johnson, Michael Floyd, etc. etc. Being able to flip your hips and go is a super duper valuable asset. And when you combine it with a corner who is also tall, that's a special combination that's hard to beat. I just want it all for our team. I want the big corner who can cover. But maybe for us, having ANYBODY who can cover would be an upgrade. LOL. I may be shooting for the stars in wanting it all from a cornerback. We were a franchised blessed with Mel Blount and Rod Woodson; so I may be out on a limb wanting a cornerback who has all the skills AND the height too.
Revis officially measured 5'11" at the NFL scouting combine, and is listed at 5'11" 198 on the NFL.com website. So, I'm pretty sure he didn't just grow an inch taller this offseason. There are other very good corners shorter than 6'. Janoris Jenkins (5'10"), Chris Harris (5'11"), Brent Grimes (only 5'9 1/2" at the combine), Joe Haden (5'11"). It's really a mix of sizes when you look at the excellent corners in the game. Also, Vernon Hargreaves is only 5'10", and I don't think you'll find anyone who knows a shred about football who will say that Jackson or Apple are better pro corner prospects.
I just want contested catches. The best WR's will get their due, but if we have corners that can make it at least challenging for the WR to catch the ball I think height is something I can ignore. I believe we'll see it this year with Golson on the field, a smaller dude who should be able to stick with most WR"s and make life difficult for them.
Hargreaves is 5'10" and no way would I take anyone other than Jalen Ramsey over him in this draft (strictly DB), to include all the 6'+ dudes.
All things equal, yeah I want the taller CB.
Well unfortunately Revis is 5'11". At his combine he was 5'11" and he is listed on NFL.com at 5'11"... That's just how tall he is. And you missed Chris Harris Jr. at the super bowl. He plays opposite Talib, and is widely recognized as one of the best corners in the game right now. He went nearly two seasons without giving up a TD pass (until AB got 2 on him lol). He's only 5'10". I forgot Talib in my previous post and admittedly it was a bad omission. He's definitely a top 10 corner. But its not my fault you forgot all their names lol they are all the top players at the position not named Sherman, Talib and Peterson. Those 3 are really the only top corners that are 6'1" or taller.
It's fine that you want a taller corner. I wouldn't hate it either, but I just want a guy that can cover. We lack that big time in our secondary. Height doesn't make someone cover better tho. The only time height really comes into play is in the RZ on jump balls and even then a big vertical can overcome that. Give me the guy that can stick in any WR's back pocket and can make a play on the ball. I'll take that guy whether he's 5'10" or 6'3".
For the record, I'm on the Eli Apple train right now. That's who I hope we get in May, so we can at least agree on that haha
Looks like I basically said the exact same thing in the first two sentences of my post lol sorry SE, I should've read yours before my response
I'll ask you one more question. You said none of our hobbits can go one on one against the taller receivers you listed above. If they all magically grew to 6'2" would they then be able to cover them?
My bet is no. They can't cover them because they suck (minus Gay), not because they are short. There are plenty of tall corners who suck too. Just ask NO what happened to Stanley Jean Baptiste. Our guys are just short and suck instead of being tall and suck lol
heck we worked SJB out towards the end of the season and never signed him with all the trouble we had in the secondary last year. i'm still not convinced about spending our money on gay this year either. age for one thing and willie really isn't a true #1 or #2 corner either. that would limit our money would could spend on a true 1 or 2.
Heh, short and sucky vs. tall and sucky is not the debate you want to be having when stocking the roster. For the record, I do think Gay is a pretty decent 3rd corner. The problem is that he was our #1 corner, not our #3. Another problem was Allen at safety. He did a few good things against the run, and blitzed well, but he was a liability on the back end, and that hurt as much as having Blake on the field.
I don't think that the cupboard is quite as bare as some do. I think Cockrell flashed the potential to be an adequate starter with some good offseason coaching, and Golson's college film was just great. If you can set aside his size, and just watch how he played, you see excellent awareness and great ball skills (not to mention his obvious ability as a ring-bearer). His size may limit his ability to be an outside starter, but we're in nickel 70% of the time, and he is a quick, instinctive pass defender.
We all want and need more talent on the back end, but we're not starting from zero - especially if we can resign either Gay or Boykin to a cost-effective deal.
Idk. I think Gay is a perfect #2. He has position flexibility too and can move to the slot if we need him to. He has a lot of value for a player over 30. I wouldn't go long term, but I think we'd be crazy to not try to sign him.
We're not gonna get a true #1 in FA. We'd have to go over 8-10 mil a year probably and we just won't be spending that kind of cash. We can find a good player at a lesser value and draft someone instead. Besides, we usually don't go for "core" players in FA. We try to draft those type of players. I'd try to sign Gay and draft Apple. Roll with those two plus Golson Cockrell and Blake. That's a really young crew minus Gay, then we can go grab another player via FA or the draft once his time is done. Then we can spend our money on a FA safety like Weddle or something like that. Our secondary gets a ton better in short order if we do that
I agree with this. We will probably be relying heavily on young players like Cockrell, Golson and whoever we draft this year, but it's not like we have absolutely nothing at CB. If we can work a decent deal out with Gay, we have a guy that has been a good starter for us both in the slot and on the boundary. Add a starting FA safety and our secondary looks a hell of a lot better than it did last season.
i do think cockrell has the ability to be a good #2 and i think boykin would have more longevity than gay going forward. golson we will see. like elvis said he has good tape. golden is another guy i hope we sign for the new will allen type role. he would be insurance and is younger too. draft a corner and a safety and we could be set for a few years. it would allow us to bring guys along from there. grant is good depth and i'd keep him as a safety/ corner tweener. i don't think it would hurt us if he had to do spot duty at either spot.
this could also help.
I won't say flat out no to that.... But as a Raven hater, I still have nightmares of his horrid deep coverage in that playoff game in Denver a few years ago when Flacco was able to "chuck and pray" his way to a win because Moore was AWOL.
Your right; that's why I said coverage skils AND height. I want the whole ball of wax. A top notch cornerback has all of the attributes.
My thoughts exactly, no place on my teams if he can't find the ball.And make a play on the ball.
So it sounds like your saying that with all this in mind, we probably won't go cornerback in the first round?
i said draft a corner and a safety. first round, maybe but i think this draft has guys that go pretty deep in this one that are on the same level as some they have in the first couple of rounds. most boards are going to adjust more after these pro days and some of these guys will move the closer we get to draft day. there are really good players deep in this draft at corner and safety.
whats everyones thoughts on kamalei correa from boise st. as an OLB in maybe the 3rd?
I haven't focused in on the OLB prospects yet but the need is there. With JJ being a bust, adding an OLB only makes sense.
Thought I'd give one more mock before free agency goes full tilt. Re-signed Golden,Gay, DHB, and Foster is reportedly close.
1. Josh Garnett G Stanford - Seems like he will be a very good player for a long time. The offensive skill players can't do much without a good line. If Foster re-signs, Garnett competes in camp and/or comes in for injuries if needed. Starter easily in year 2 if not sooner.
Previous - Kevin Dodd DE Clemson
2. Chris Jones DE Miss St. - Bolsters the def. line, pass rush, and would give a great rotation with Heyward and Tuitt.
Previous - William Jackson III CB Houston
3. Yannick Ngakoue OLB Maryland - Harrison may/may not be back and JJ is just JJ unfortunately.
Previous - Karl Joseph S WVU
4. Justin Simmons S Boston College - Very sound tackler who will upgrade the defense in that regard. Very good in diagnosing plays and shows some knack for the turnover.
Previous - Sebastian Tretola OG Arkansa
7. Beau Sandland TE Montana St - huge hands, big frame and 4.7 forty with 23 on the bench IIRC. Small school TE in the 7th sound familiar?
7. Jatavis Brown ILB Akron - fast, undersized LBer. Loves to hit. Made for special teams.
7. (comp projected) Joel Stave QB - Seems like they want a QB having interviewed 3 already. Big kid, and looked good in the games I watched this year. Haven't researched him much tbh, but inconsistency seems to be his knock.
Previous - Barry Sanders RB
Weakness of this draft - no CBs or OTs.
Rnd 1 - Kevin Dodd, Shaq Lawson, or Sheldon Rankins. I'd be surprised if Lawson or Rankins is there but you never know.
Rnd 2 - Jeremy Cash S Duke and does anyone think Kendall Fuller drops to the 2nd? It's a long shot but some teams get scared of the previous injuries. Like I said, a long shot but they should pounce on him if he's there. I'd be all over WJIII but I really think he goes late 1, early 2.
Rnd 3 - I'll go with Yannick's teammate Sean Davis CB/S. I think he would best fit at safety.
Rnd 4 - Two interior lineman who really impressed me at the combine, but haven't seen a lot of game film. Joe Dahl Wash St and Darrelle Green San Diego St. I don't know who the SDST o-line coach is but I seem to like a prospect from there every year. A lot of guards but I can't seem to find a mid round tackle I'd go in for. Tretola could play RT and so could Germaine Ifedhi Texas AM so they could be options as well. Ifedhi will probably go higher than the 4th imo.
No offense Turtle but I hate that mock
No safety until the 4th and no CB at all, a guard in the first, Id be very unhappy. Gay and Golden will not and should not effect when they address those needs.
They have no bearing in my eyes either. I was just noting who has been signed in FA so far. I could see the board falling this way though. I like some other safeties, but don't think they are available when we pick. Simmons is a player though. I think they will get a CB in the top 4 rounds, but the ones I think would be available are less value than Jones and Ngakoue imo. Of course, the Steelers will see things way different than me.
OK last one before I see all the prospects they met with. Changed due to some of the MB developments and FA.
1. Sheldon Rankins DT Louisville
2. Xavien Howard CB Baylor - good tackler is a plus, 6' 201 good size for the outside. Golson can man the slot
3. Justin Simmons S Boston College Moving into my fav safety prospect. Another good tackler.
4. Paul McRoberts WR Southeastern Missouri 6'2" 202. Good hand size and uses them well. Good size and experience with punt and KR duties.
6. Darrelle Green OG SDSU. Not sure where he's projected, but would be a good pick imo.
7. Beau Sandland TE Montana St. still like this guy's potential
7. Derrick Alexander DE Tulsa. Pitts visited his pro day. Link below. Great hustle and quickness.