I'm more optimistic than this guy

http://stillcurtain.com/2015/03/25/...-defense-to-dominate-steeler-nation-chuckles/

Yea know, I know we have a lot of possible holes and question marks on D, but I am not going to assume we will be just terrible like this guy does. He thinks the D will be at a laughable level, followed by tears.

As I said in my very first post in here, I feel the deletion of Dick, Troy and Ike give us _the chance_ of improving, for the reasons I stated.

Dallas went from one of the historic worst Ds - and then LOST some of their best talent - and improved notably the next season, all because of a changed DC who changed the system. Butler won't make wholesale changes, but it has been stated he will be tweaking it, and hopefully that means he will make it more simple so young players can get on the field. It is possible that our front 7 is set (assuming JJ will make strides, Harrison can stay healthy, etc.).

It is time for a non-LeBeau, non-Polamalu centric D. I believe without the man love, ball and chain keeping us down, the D will show improvement. I don't think they are going to be a joke, like this guy does. Who is he, anyhow? Anything can happen. We don't know if Butler will make a great DC; he has never done it. We could have some injuries making us sign guy off the street to play. But with a little luck, this D could be better than a joke. But they better draft well. No more clueless picks, please.

 

I guess we will see. Lots of people are uncomfortable because there are a lot of question marks, but these question marks are the reason why the D could surprise you. Everyone is kinda assuming the worst of these question marks as of now, and we don't know who we are going to take in the draft. It makes one uneasy. However, we have a lot of young guys in Tuitt, Shazier, JJ, And McCullers who could elevate their game significantly in a short time. Same goes for guys like Webb and Blake who now will have a real opportunity to show what they've got. Even Mitchell could be someone who improves tons for us now that he doesn't have the colossal boat anchor that was Troy potentially handcuffing his play. There is also a rumor that Tomlin is even open to moving him to SS (assuming that's under the condition that we draft a starting FS early?). All of this and I'm not even counting the upcoming draft picks.

while it isn't likely that all of the question marks pan out, just a few guys stepping up can make a huge difference. I'm not guaranteeing any type of monumental turnaround for us, but it wouldn't shock me to see them turn into a fairly solid unit by season's end. We could just as easily see a similar product as last year, but I'm betting that we have some type of improvement. At least I hope so haha

 

I often see addition through subtraction, and that is what I am hopeful for.With Dick blinded by man, Troy love, he allowed him to freelance too much, and, while that once worked, it no longer was, but he just stuck with it regardless. Far too often, we played like it was 10 defenders vs. 11 offensive players. That dog won't hunt. Dick's mantra was "guard against giving up the big play" but even with that as his top priority, we became the worst D of giving up big plays. The worst. I believe we gave up more 20+ and 40+ yards plays than any other team. Did I hear that right? Something like that. It is my perception, that the D became more solid when Ike and Troy were off the field. Well, we should have an entire season of those conditions. I have hope we will be improved. We will become as good as the 1976 Steelers, 1985 Bears or the 2000 Ravens? Of course not. But if we flirt with a top 12 D, with this offense, we could sure make some noise. I am not ready to concede that our D will be pathetic as this guy is.

 

The one flaw in your logic is that besides your eyeball test the facts don't support your conclusions. Troy being allowed to freelance didn't cause Cam Thomas to stand up after the ball was snapped and not engage his man. DL's man crush on Troy didn't allow Mitchell to fly at ball carriers and receivers looking to lay the big hit and falling to wrap the man up and make a basic tackle. Troy playing up in run support didn't have Shazier and Spence breaking backside contain in an effort to make a tackle for loss and failing. Dick's insistence that Troy is still a top defender didn't cause Jason Worilds to continually get blown up by 2nd string barely talented RB's. Neither DL or TP are responsible for Blake, Gay and McCain getting torched when they have man coverage. Neither one is responsible for the front seven not maintaining gap integrity and stringing runs out east to west but rather saw guys shoot up field in a effort to make a splash play and whiffing thereby creating a hole that the back could get through. The 10 vs 11 comment is laughable since guys missing their assignments can just as easily have the defense playing 10-11 ie Timmons over pursuing and allowing the back to get by him(Troy's fault right?) Spence getting muscled off the line(Troy's fault), Williams not wrapping his man up?(Troy's fault) at this point I think Troy might have been on the grassy knoll

 

Lol.

It's interesting how once a player looks like they might be gone, all the ills of the past become their fault. Like I've said in another thread, the faults in the defense are all interlinked. This is why I think we see a big improvement next year, whether Troy is there or not.

 

I kind of was in the blame Troy for everything category. For one, the D seemed to play better once he was hurt. But you make a lot of good points. Of course, had Troy, playing up, made some splash plays this year, then some of the other player's faults may not have been exposed as much. It's a team sport either way. So, while Troy doesn't deserve all the blame, he is a part of the defense, and the defense deserves some blame. After all, recognizing there is a problem is part of plotting a course to fix it.

 

This is circular logic, at best. Citing every single error by every player does NOTHING to refute that on so many deep plays, we see TP out there, in space, not COVERING ANYONE. He would be downfield, just out there, and the opposing QB hits a wide open target with Troy's hair flowing to nothing. None of the errors you mention have ANYTHING to do with Troy guessing wrong on so many plays, being allowed to freelance but constantly guessing wrong and taking himself out of the play. I saw it happen over and over again and when he was not on the field the D stopped giving up so many big plays. You can live in denial all you want, and bash every player but the fact is that Troy made the D worse, especially when his 80-year old bromance buddy allowed him to just go out there and guess where to run. Just wait until this D gets better sans and Dick, and then come talk to me. It's gonna happen, and you will have to painfully admit I was right.

 

Very intelligent points.

 

So you choose to ignore that mistakes are being made by all 11 men on the field at various times because Troy not covering anyone is the reason Mitchell doesn't make a play on the ball thrown his way. It's the reason McCann can't jump high enough to stop a contested ball. If only Troy had covered someone the play all the way across the field no where near him could have been stopped. Is that how that works?

Yet those plays are damning to Troy and DL but when the rest of the defense makes them it is irrelevant? Why?

Oh so they gave up big plays just not as many as when Troy was out there so that is ok, right because it proves your point. The fact that you have limited proof beyond your eyeball test and no knowledge of the playcalls, the personel packages, the responsibility of all 11 guys are all just pointless because you saw it time and time again but just fewer when he was on the sideline, so it has to be Troy its only logical.

I love how pointing out the flaws in everyone elses game that made the defnse worse is me bashing players and living in denial while you clearly ignore all relevant information that disproves your theory such as OTHER PEOPLE ON THE TEAM not making plays, guessing wrong and not covering anybody those are just me trying to confuse the issue.

It could get better, could be worse, could stay the same, I have zero problem admitting when Im wrong question is does it really matter at this point? Change is happening for good or for ill.

 

Troy certainly wasn't the only issue with the defense last season, but he really put some other defenders in positions to look bad. Also the frequency in which we got torched for the big play leaves the images of the breakdowns in your mind for a much longer time since you have to watch Jordan Cameron and the Browns celebrate in the end zone on top of replacing yet another remote control lol

 

the difference is troy nowis a minus before was a plus , if he wasn't guessing wrong , if he was like before maybe he would have been near mc cain helping an int or tackling a rb behind the line .. is not that troy make the other worst , the absence of the old troy is the problem

 

Sorry the lasting image for me is Mitchell leaving his man alone in the back of the end zone because he thinks the kicker is going to get to the edge and run in for a score. That one stands out more to me. Basically because it was a playoff game.

Close second has to be Worilds getting his legs cut out from under him on back to back plays allowing the QB to get a clean throw.

Honorable mention to who ever had AJ Green and let him run wild, but that was probably Troy Edit no wait that was when Troy was hurt and on the sideline yeah man he guessed wrong on that day.

 

All 11 take ownership for sure. We've seen Troy falling off for a couple years now even while still coming up clutch at times. His speed ain't what it was so that takes his freelancing role out of the discussion. We gained a lot at times throughout his career letting him roam, and have gambled and lost at the same time by not keeping him at home. I think our D will surprise us and I love Troy, but am ready to move on from his greatness. It's his time.

 

Good points and I agree. Everything has a shelf life and it time for Troy to be put on a shelf.

Going to miss him but we watched the last two years where he seemed to be ineffective. He has always been great. The best part of Troys game was his instincts and abilities to break up plays and second guess where the play is going. Now he has lost a step so even though he may have a great mind of what play is about to develop he just cant get there anymore.

 

I believe Will Allen was a better fit for Mitchell. Troy unfortunately declined quick. Seemed slow and out of place. Not blaming Troy. It is what it is, and last year is gone.

I am looking forward to the new look Defense with fresh ideas, young raw players. A young Defense. Yes they will struggle at times but I feel the aggressiveness will return and they will gel into a force once again.

What the real question is why, WHY is Tomato Cam Thomas still on this roster?

 

That is a fact! Mitchell's game improved exponentially when Allen was playing because Allen, while not great, is an assignment disciplined partner on the back end of the defense and doesn't leave his zone exposed forcing the other safety to cover more territory. The less space Mitchell had to cover the better he looked. Troy made his reputation as a freelance demon who was always good for multiple, difference making, splash-like plays a game. Last year showed us, sadly, that Troy wasn't able to do that anymore but it appeared that both he and DL still thought he could. That's why Troy needs to retire. Troy can't be the Will Allen vanilla variety safety. He's the Neapolitan flavored safety who will go down as the greatest in Steeler history and one of the greatest ever, injuries notwithstanding.

It's time for Troy to retire with grace and dignity. I commend the Steelers for giving him an opportunity to do so.

 

I was going to make this point in one of my post up top Jack. Having Allen in there or even Shamarko will make Mitchell seem better because it lowers his responsibilty and allows him to react more and think less. Many of the times the Llyoddestroy is talking about is when Troy was walked up to the line in run support, this made Mitchell have to play center field and then asses the opposing teams personnel and decide who is the biggest threat and who will need safety help over the top. If AJ Green is in the game then you absolutely should be cheating to his side in an effort provide safety coverage over the top. This leaves the middle uncontested with Spence and Williams covering or possibly Gay in Nickel coverage not an ideal situation. Having Will Allen in the game meant you lose an extra man down in the box but you allow Mitchell to be more at ease only having to cover one side of the field and can let his choices be instinctual rather than thought out.

I don't think there should be any doubt that Troy was not able to come flying up to the line, show blitz and then get back into his zone, he just couldn't which is why you saw more of him walking up to the line and staying there. Should this have been changed? Yes absolutely, I said during the course of the year that Lebeau should be asking for help and taking any ideas that are out there. Much of DL's system is dependent on stopping the run and forcing the pass, and then forcing bad decisions. I think early on it became obvious that the front seven were having problems stopping the run for reasons I mentioned earlier in the thread and so Lebeau made the choice to have Troy freelance because of his trust in him. That was a mistake and it did leave guys new to the system like Mitchell sitting on an island and asking them to do more than they have before but if the front seven could stuff the run you don't need that extra man in the box. I think it comes down to what choices were made and it always seems that stopping the run supersedes all else.

I think we may see more aggression next season in the defensive backfield but it will also be somewhat vanilla as well.

 

Agree. And if we're to believe that Mitchell was injured a good part of the season it's easy to understand why the back end of the defense gave up big play after big play. A physically diminished Troy and an injured Mitchell was a recipe for disaster in the secondary. And vanilla's not a bad flavor if it will prevent the 40+ yard plays from occurring.

Random Steeler trivia question: What was Chuck Noll's favorite ice cream?
Answer: Vanilla.
That's good enough for me!

 

Lots of straw man arguments in there. I never said every other player didn't make any mistakes or that their mistakes didn't matter, only YOU said that. This thread wasn't about having to find blame in every player. The point was that I don't think they are as doomed to stink as the writer does, and I cited the subtraction of LeBeau and Troy as to one of the reasons I am more optimistic. Then YOU turned it into having to cast blame on every player....which was never the point. When Troy was out of the game, the D played better. That is what the eye test told me. leBeau was living off his legacy, but fact of the matter is, I no longer think he is the defensive "genius" he once was and it was time to move on, which the Rooneys clearly could see themselves, thankfully.

 

Well, none of us know what they were thinking, other than they knew it was time for a change, whether or not they believed DL was not getting it done or not. I am just pleased they did what they did, for whatever reason they did it.

 

Hmmm lets take a look shall we just for funnsies.

Seems to me that quote says that you believe DL and Troy were keeping the defense down? What did you mean if not that? I pointed out mistakes by others contributing to a defensive downside that had more to do with it than the man love.

Pretty much seems like you are ignoring anyone else's missteps and focusing on Troy but heck I could be wrong the 10 vs 11 could refer to Cam Thomas.

Lets talk about the portion I highlighted you didn't bother to check the facts but you proceed to state that your perception is the D became more solid after Ike and Troy were off the field. Your conclusions are based on something you heard but didn't check. I started this morning going back through the play by play for each game and looking at the receiver stats. I made it through week 12 so far and the glaring thing was not Troy, who did make mistakes mind you, but the guys who were supposed to be covering on those 40 yard completions and didn't. The 51 yard completion to Cameron in week 6 Cortez Allen had the coverage, Troy and all of the LB's bought the play action and flowed to their right towards what they think is a run and Cameron gets behind Allen for a TD score, the 67 yarder to Graham in wk 10 Gay and McCain beat and run into each other but wouldn't have mattered if they didn't Mitchell slipped and fell and his man was open to. Troy isn't even on the field for that one. THe Colts game where both sides gave up monster yardage Hilton had catches of 45 yards(McCain) and 28 yards(Allen) see a pattern here? Allen was the most abused followed by Mitchell from what I was seeing on tape it had less to do with freelancing and more to do with having to have an extra guy in the box.

I think I refuted that pretty well in the last comment but I will add that zone coverage means you cover your zone and the man in your zone, once he leaves your zone your responsibilities change. Can you give some game examples where he stood out there not covering anyone? Some video evidence I can look at because I'm not finding much to help with your claims.

Pretty sure I addressed that but in case I didn't 67 yard TD pass from Vick to Graham with Mitchell, Will Allen, McCain and Gay on the field. 51 yard TD from Hoyer to Cameron with Cortz Allen covering and the whole D buying the fake handoff. Hilton 45 yard TD from Luck with McCain in coverage and old 43 playing centerfield but he may have been slow getting over there.

I think you may have missed my point which was that the defense made mistakes because they were young and inexperienced. Your premise is that once Troy and Lebeau are gone that will make things better. In challenging that premise I have shown examples of where the defense made mistakes that had nothing to do with Troy Polamalu or Dick Lebeau. Mistakes that must be corrected in order for things to get better. The appearance of them "getting" better with Troy out is deceptive as I have pointed out before and should be credited more to advancements by the team and not the subtraction of Polamalu. Tuitt getting more playing time, Moats spelling Harrison and Worilds, the high level play of Keisel and Harrison beyond what many thought possible, the continued development of Heyward, Blake and McCain playing above the line and yes Mitchell playing better knowing Allen was not going to be in run support. Not needing a 8th and 9th man/men in the box because they front 7 began to understand their roles and hold the line instead of charging up field on plays looking to be the star. It wasn't just Troy being gone that made them appear better.

At this point I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree. You clearly are going to beat that drum for all its worth about DL and his man crush on Troy causing so many problems. I don't agree and everytime I see it I feel I have to respond using something like this

[video=youtube;zZgCUpYny7Y]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZgCUpYny7Y[/video]

I don't notice 43 anywhere around that 80 yard TD completion but I did see three guys getting fooled.

 

Damnit thorn how do you multi-quote so beautifully?! lol

 

I could do it, but it would tie up most of my weekend.