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Organizational arrogance

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by steelersrule6, Feb 28, 2015.

  1. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    I think that's part of the reason the Steelers don't value the CB position, another part of if had to with LeBeau's defense. The defense worked with when they had dominating OLBs like Harrison and Woodley in their prime, they could get by with average CB play. Now with a weak pass rush the secondary gets exposed such as giving up the most 40 yd plays in 2014, and the playoff loss to the Ravens. With Butler as DC maybe we will see a change in philosophy, and upgrade the talent at CB.
     
  2. lloyddestroy

    lloyddestroy Well-Known Member

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    I think you may be right. This team does allow arrogance into the mix and it's a damn shame.
     
  3. TerribleTowelFlying

    TerribleTowelFlying Staff Member Site Admin Mod Team

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    Organizational arrogance?

    [​IMG]
     
  4. turtle

    turtle

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    devils advocate here, but I don't think anyone saw Woodley's play dwindling while his waistline climbed. That may be why they didn't address CB with a high round pick back then. I can't think of any reason for the lack of picks high in the past 2 drafts.
     
  5. lloyddestroy

    lloyddestroy Well-Known Member

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    There is no excuse for waiting until the 5th round last year. None. They took a gadget, 150 lb midget RB TWO rounds earlier than a CB. That is just moronic. Where are all those late round CB picks now?

    5th round Richardson, off the team.
    5th round Hawthorne, off the team.
    7th round Fredericks, off the team
    4th round Allen, the worst starting CB in the NFL.
    5th round Butler, off the team

    That plan has worked REALLY well there, guys. You really showed us, that you never need to take a CB earlier than the 4th round. You really proved how genius you were.
     
  6. strummerfan

    strummerfan Well-Known Member

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    That pretty much sums it up.
     
  7. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Isn't the Seahawks starting secondary primarily late round picks? Also Dennard and Gilbert were first rd picks, I seem to recall articles about them not doing so well but I can't say for certainty, I'd have to look that up. But, point is, you can find late rd players that are good and you can easily miss on early rd picks.

    That never gets old :roflmao:
     
  8. Thigpen82

    Thigpen82 Bitter optimist

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    Taking picks that didn't work out and listing them without any sense of context or reason isn't good evidence for the arrogance of an organisation.

    Crezdon Butler, for example, showed a lot of upside; didn't quite develop how he should have, and had too much competition in the squad for them to keep him around.

    Cortez Allen, meanwhile, outperformed a guy picked above him, and saw off other competition for the role. Then he appeared to completely lose all the ability he had before. There's something going on there that goes beyond him simply being a 'bad player'.

    Hawthorne and/or Richardson were injured, if I recall correctly.

    The results may be the same, but the contexts are different. So if we want to despair at the lack of CB talent around, then maybe it's just the results we're interested in. If we're going to accuse the organisation of arrogance, then we need to make a better case than that.
     
  9. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Theres no case to be made, its just fan frustration.
     
  10. Thigpen82

    Thigpen82 Bitter optimist

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    :this!:
     
  11. lloyddestroy

    lloyddestroy Well-Known Member

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    Blast, no one ever said early picks are locks or that you can't find good players later; the point is if you rely on ONLY later picks for a CB unit, chances are you will be weak there. We are.
     
  12. lloyddestroy

    lloyddestroy Well-Known Member

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    This is the case. All late picks and you end up where we are. But the team really thought they were gonna prove that they were right, and now they look like boobs.

    5th round Richardson, off the team.
    5th round Hawthorne, off the team.
    7th round Fredericks, off the team
    4th round Allen, the worst starting CB in the NFL.
    5th round Butler, off the team

    That plan has worked REALLY well there, guys. You really showed us, that you never need to take a CB earlier than the 4th round. You really proved how genius you were.
     
  13. Chainmover1

    Chainmover1 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG] Originally Posted by lloyddestroy [​IMG] There is no excuse for waiting until the 5th round last year. None. They took a gadget, 150 lb midget RB TWO rounds earlier than a CB. That is just moronic. Where are all those late round CB picks now?

    5th round Richardson, off the team.
    5th round Hawthorne, off the team.
    7th round Fredericks, off the team
    4th round Allen, the worst starting CB in the NFL.
    5th round Butler, off the team

    That plan has worked REALLY well there, guys. You really showed us, that you never need to take a CB earlier than the 4th round. You really proved how genius you were.


    Isn't the Seahawks starting secondary primarily late round picks? Also Dennard and Gilbert were first rd picks, I seem to recall articles about them not doing so well but I can't say for certainty, I'd have to look that up. But, point is, you can find late rd players that are good and you can easily miss on early rd picks.

    I think I'm going to go with Blast Furnace on this one. I think the said "Isn't the Seahawks etc etc.

    Yeah, TS[the Steelers] have had too much success the past umpteen years and led the league or were really very high in pass defense to label their thinking as anything but playing the percentages.

    This is funny because I have only tried a mock draft once. It was 2012. Now I am no draftnik for sure because I don't like college ball enough to watch for players. But, 5 minutes after TS season ends I'm reading all the posts looking for who's whos and stuff like that.

    That year and none of the picks were really my own, they were merely names that some top posters were discussing and showing clips so I nodded my head and took them.

    The mock was 2nd rd Lacy 3rd Wheaton 4th the Shark 5tj I think Joseph Fauria a TE and believe it or not in the 6th and 7th rds Vince Williams and maybe the other Williams [Nick] but maybe not. You would be shocked at how many posters were hyping those Williams. Especially Vince

    Now the mock was simulated against the picks of WalterFootball. But in the first I bought the no no's of many posters on an OLB and maybe some others well liked here were gone but anyhow for me I went to the overall rankings of players and the highest one was CB Xavier [I can't even recall his last name] I never mentioned it because he wasn't or isn't much either. Nonetheless I was thinking sooner or later a replacement for Ike had to be made.

    Nonetheless I do believe it is a priority thing however and also maybe just a little bad luck with the picks. But I do expect this year some CB's/DB's might be there when their turn comes up in the higher rounds.

    Oh, and Yes Seattle has played in two SB/WC's with a 5th and 6th rd CB.
     
  14. Thigpen82

    Thigpen82 Bitter optimist

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    Not sure you really needed to copy and paste what you wrote 7 posts above, Lloyd, but still.
     
  15. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Sorry, but that doesn't prove arrogance at all. Thigpen already countered this. You can make a better case for a need of improved scouting before youd ever prove a case for arrogance. Do you really believe they are sitting there making decisions based on "we'll show them"? Come on Llyod. Their draft strategy just differs then yours, mostly based on the fact that they don't play press coverage, maybe that will change now with Butler but it has zero to do with arrogance.
     
  16. SGSteeler

    SGSteeler Well-Known Member

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    IMO we are weak at CB not because we don't value the position, but rather the traits we originally valued are getting exposed with the new PI/holding rules. That, and of course, not getting much pressure... I doubt it is because we are too arrogant to draft the CB position early lol

    It it seems like with all the new rules, the best way to play the position is to jam at the line since that is the only way you are gonna get your hands on the WR. In all reality, pressing Cortez Allen and allowing him to jam the WR might save his career. He took a lot of holding penalties in preseason and it killed his confidence. Maybe he is a good press corner? Or maybe he is just a good slot corner than got exposed on the outside. Maybe he just sucks lol but we should exhaust all possibilities because if he suddenly comes back into form and we draft a young kid who can play some... we quickly become strong at a position we deem as the weakest on the roster.
     
  17. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    You can call it whatever you want, but the product on the field sucks. Maybe they just can't scout the CB position.
     
  18. lloyddestroy

    lloyddestroy Well-Known Member

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    It still has something to do with arrogance. Once the media and fans start to assert that we need help in an area, this team digs its heals in to "show us" that they are right.

    They were out to PROVE they didn't need any priority with the QB position, ever since Malone didn't pan out. How long did they try to prove they were right about that? We suffered through Cliff Stoudt, Bubby, O'Donnell, T-zak, Kent Graham, Jim Miller, Kordell, Maddox.....all to prove that you don't need to make QB a priority. It took decades of denial until they FINALLY put the priority the position needed to get Ben and it wasn't UNTIL that point that we won more rings.

    Then they did the same thing with the OL, trying to prove that they didn't need higher pick to build a good OL. They had a period there when everyone was openly questioning why they were putting no emphasis on the OL and Tomlin arrogantly said, "We can help Ben in other ways" - meaning the picks of Sweed and Bruce Davis made us better than an Olman would have. Well, that was embarrassing. They should have started sprinkling the roster with some higher OL picks after 2005 but they refused and let that unit go from a strength to an embarrassment. In 2005 they took the lousey Essex in the 3rd and KEmo later than that. 2006 they took Colon in the in the 4th. 2007 they took a PUNTER and a lousey TE before wasting their OL pick in the 5th on Stephenson, in 2008 they waited until the 4th and took the soft Hills. 2009 they waited until the 3rd and wasted the pick on Urbik (who actually had been playing in Buffalo, don't know why they know how to make him work when we couldn't.) It wasn't until 2010 until they finally took the OL seriously. Of the players taken earlier than OL those years included Anthony Smith, Willie Reid, Spaeth, McBean, a failed punter, Sweed, Bruce Davis. Then, when we needed OL help the most, they did use two 2nd rounders but they BLEW the picks on Adams and Gilbert.

    They carry themselves as if they are smarter than everyone, but they no longer have the right to do so, but they just don't realize it yet. They buy into their own hype, and there IS NO DOUBT that LeBeau did as well. JUST because we don't play press coverage doesn't mean we NEVER have to take a CB before the 5th round, but obviously, they were trying to prove that. Look at the two Super Bowl teams last year, and what do you see? Both teams had outstanding starting CBs. Yes, Seattle got theirs in later rounds, but perhaps they are better at judging talent, as NONE of our guys pan out. Ike did, but that was eons ago, and he never could catch a cold, so let's not claim he was this superior player himself.
     
  19. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    I don't even know how to respond to all this, just that I strongly strongly strongly disagree with your perception of things. You're spanning decades here with completely different management in charge and yet they all have been carrying on the arrogant tradition.

    I don't know why you carry such venom for this organization, but IMO it is clearly clouding your judgment.
     
  20. blountforcetrauma

    blountforcetrauma Well-Known Member

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    I don't think it's necessarily true that the team tries to stick it to the fans. The factor I would point to in support of this is the fact that we begged, cried, pleaded, made deals with the devil, and everything else to try and get them to draft some o linemen after Ben kept getting pummeled over and over. It was an obvious need that even us casual observers could see. So what does the team do? They take two in a row in rounds one and two. I'm pretty sure they know what we need more than we know what we need. Although I wish they would have not taken Adams the point still stands that they drafted early for an obvious need and if anything Adams showed they went against their "best player available" philosophy because he clearly wasn't the best. LOL. But still.
     
  21. SC Gamecock

    SC Gamecock

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    lol'z
     
  22. lloyddestroy

    lloyddestroy Well-Known Member

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    First of all, I made my assertions in plain black and white. Why not refute them instead of making blanket "you have venom" statements? Secondly, the eras I refer to were all owned by the very same family with shared family philosophies. It comes from the top, and "the top" has remained the Rooneys through all eras I mentioned. "The Steeler way" could easily be labelled "The Rooney Way" as they are one in the same. I gave three specific, detailed examples, of three different instances, where they dug their heels in and refused to address position the fans and media felt needed more priority: The QB unit from 1980-2001, the OL unit from 2003 to 2010, and the CB unit from Rod Woodson until, well, we are still in that era right now unless they address it this draft.
     
  23. BobbyBiz

    BobbyBiz Well-Known Member

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    You're giving the fans and the media too much credit. I seriously doubt that the organization gives a rats ass what the media and fans think in regards to personel decisions. And they shouldn't either.
     
  24. SteelerGlenn

    SteelerGlenn

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    We won the division and made the playoffs. We Suck ?
     
  25. SteelerGlenn

    SteelerGlenn

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    Lol!
     

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