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Elite QB????

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by burghfan58, Oct 28, 2014.

  1. burghfan58

    burghfan58 Well-Known Member

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    So let me get this straight. Ben has been to 3 superbowls, winning 2 of them. He throws for 500+ yards putting him in an elite group of QBs that have thrown for over 500 yards. He is only the 4th QB to get 100 wins in 150 starts putting him in another elite group of Bradshaw, Montana, Brady and now Ben. He throws for 500+ yards for a second time, 6 touchdowns and zero interceptions. He is the only QB to have thrown for 500+ yards twice. However, the controversy will still occur as to whether he should be mentioned in the same breath as Brady and Manning as an "Elite" QB. Yes, that makes sense they keep questioning his elite QB status ...... NOT!
     
  2. D0bre Shunka

    D0bre Shunka Well-Known Member

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    It's utterly ridiculous. As I've been posting it here and the old board for years now. Enjoy watching a HOF er while it's happening, never-mind the day when we all look back and smile on it.

    With the new records and more to come let's not forget this guy changed the way the position is played.
     
  3. steel_d_curtain

    steel_d_curtain Well-Known Member

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    Ben is, was, will always be underrated. More people hate Ben because they think he's arrogant and all about himself. Yet, I never hear him bash his teammates, coaches, fans, etc. He takes responsibility when the Steelers lose, never puts himself above anybody when they win.

    Now for some reason everyone thinks Miss Manning is the poster boy for the NFL. Here is a guy who never takes blame For a bad game, critisized his O-line, kicker etc. publicly. What got me the most irrated was seeing him throw his 509th record breaking TD and acting like a Big Sissy. He looked like a school girl trying to get the football from his teammates as they were playing with him. Ben would've have given the ball to his O-line probably cause he's really not about stats like Miss Manning.

    Some here think Ben doesn't do his homework and Manning does. How the hell do you know. Manning is probably adding up every yard and td pass he throws on the sidelines while Ben is cheering on the defense cause not once have I seen Manning cheering on his defense.
     
  4. SteelerGlenn

    SteelerGlenn

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    Ben is a great quarterback. Any arguments to the contrary are just personal dislikes for the man. His body of work speaks for itself. We are damn lucky to have him as our quarterback!
     
  5. bigsteelerfaninky

    bigsteelerfaninky Well-Known Member

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    Ben is ELITE no doubt about it.....When he wins a couple of more superbowls tha haters won't have a choice but to admit that he is
     
  6. snipit73

    snipit73

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    :lolol: Don't forget scoreboard operator!!!!!!!!!!!
    http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...s-not-approve-of-your-scoreboard-shenanigans/
     
  7. defva

    defva Well-Known Member

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    One word "Consistency"!!
     
  8. Steel_in_DC

    Steel_in_DC Well-Known Member

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    I am always amazed how one or a few games brings out differing opinions about a player as the ultimate proof of why a guy sucks or why he is great. When Ben stunk it up against Cleveland it seemed we had plenty coming out and saying "Ben can't score in the red zone, he isn't elite." Now Ben has a career day and he should be spoken in the same breadth as Brady and Manning.

    Look - you are going to get no argument from me that Ben is a HOF quarterback...though I still feel he is borderline with many voters. Ben really needs another 3-5 good seasons to probably make himself a lock and even with that I doubt he will be a first ballot HOFer unless he gets a third ring. I just made another post last week that if Ben plays well with 3500 to 4000 yard seasons, 25 TDs a year (quite do-able for a good QB, not even great QB in today's pass happy league), that Ben will already be in the Top 10 all time in passing yards and TD passes along with a strong resume of winning including most importantly in the playoffs. Plus he will also likely be in the Top 10 in QB Rating, average yards per pass, and game winning drives.

    But context folks - and here is the big reason why Ben is just not going to be spoken of in the same breadth as Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers.

    Here are some numbers for you. Brady (4.4), P. Manning (3.7), Brees (5.0), Rodgers (5.5), Ben (14.4). That is the average rank in points per game per year by those teams - for Brady, Manning (Colts and Broncos), and Ben it is over a 10 year period, for Brees it is over the 8-9 years he has been with the Saints and for Rodgers it is for the 7 years he has been starting for the Packers. If you want to throw Philip Rivers in there as well he comes out to an average rank of 7.2 which is substantially higher than Ben's years with the Steelers.

    I am sure if I were to chart TD passes per season I would guess all those QBs on average 5-10 TD passes more per season than Ben - probably with Manning and Brady it is more like 15-20.

    You can come with all the excuses in the world you want for the strong difference, better overall talent, maybe the defense creates shorter fields with more turnovers (more an argument for now, but not when the Steelers truly had a chaos causing rabid #1 defense), maybe it is because guys like Brady have piled up the points, maybe it is because those teams have had better offensive lines, etc. But one thing you cannot deny is the biggest constant over those 7-10 year periods has been the QB - O coordinators come and go, receivers change, O lineman change - but those QBs are the rocks of their franchise. And anyway you look at it, the Steelers have never fully become an offensive juggernaut which is largely driven by the QB --- and it is because of this that Ben is just not going to be spoken of in the same elite status as Manning, Brady, Brees, and Rodgers.

    As much as I admired and was blown away by Ben's performance on Sunday against the Colts, I really wouldn't be surprised if the Steelers have trouble putting up 17 against the Ravens this weekend. Hopefully that won't occur, but if it does I am sure we will get a post about how Ben isn't elite, is just good, and has not business being in the HOF.
     
  9. Coastal Steeler

    Coastal Steeler

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    DITTO Glenn
     
  10. SteelerGlenn

    SteelerGlenn

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    One word : Denial!
     
  11. Busman

    Busman

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    :this!:
     
  12. steel_d_curtain

    steel_d_curtain Well-Known Member

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    Manning and Brees. I wonder how many dome games these guys played in their career instead of the rainy, snowy, cold terrains most QB's suffer.
     
  13. Thigpen82

    Thigpen82 Bitter optimist

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    Great post. Likewise, Ben will always get my vote for the HOF. But what other people see is different to what we as fans see week in and week out.

    What the Indy game demonstrated to me was exactly what we can do when Ben is firing on all cylinders. The key for the season is to keep that happening.
     
  14. Steel_in_DC

    Steel_in_DC Well-Known Member

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    Well Manning is now playing in Denver where it gets cold and snowy. Brady and Rodgers have played plenty of games in crummy weather in Boston and Green Bay - I throw that in with the other excuses. What's next?
     
  15. rukus4ever

    rukus4ever Well-Known Member

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    Nice post.
     
  16. jeh1856

    jeh1856 Beer is good

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    Or the lack therof.
     
  17. aces4me

    aces4me Well-Known Member

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    This. When Ben plays at his best he plays as well if not better than anyone who ever strapped on a pair of cleats. But he does not deliver consistent excellence that is the hallmark of all the quarterbacks currently rated "elite". Manning plays so well all the time that the occasional game where is plays at replacement level is headline news (maybe also because those games tend to be in big games). As good as the game this week was no one on this board or anywhere else would be shocked to see him throw a stinker next week. And that is why Ben is bound for the HoF but will likely avoid the "elite" tag people throw around so randomly.
     
  18. rukus4ever

    rukus4ever Well-Known Member

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    Ben is a great QB and he will go down as one of the greatest.

    However, Brady, P.Manning, Brees, Rodgers, etc. seem to be more consistent. So, within his current class, he will (justifiably or not) be generally considered slightly below the elite class. Because all those QBs will go down as some of the greatest, also.
     
  19. lewisha

    lewisha Well-Known Member

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    Elite, no. Great yes. HOF, yes. When it is all said and done, there are currently 2 elite quarterbacks right now, Brady and Manning. By elite I mean Marino and Montana level. If Ben has 5 more good/ great years and maybe another ring, he will be first ballot HOF. I compare Ben to Jim Kelly. Jim Kelly was great, but played during the time of 2 elite QBs and 2 dynasty teams, overshadowing what he did.
     
  20. knab70

    knab70 Well-Known Member

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    Ben with or without protection can make it work, that's an attribute that other qb's only wish for.This alone puts him in the bucket with the elite.
     
  21. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    I don't think Sundays performance changed anything for either side of the argument. Those who think Ben isn't elite aren't suddenly jumping to the other side and those who think he is elite just look at Sunday as another notch in his belt. To me, Ben will always be elite and should be spoken in the same breath as those other guys. He's top five IMO.
     
  22. Steel_in_DC

    Steel_in_DC Well-Known Member

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    I get this argument and with a rabid D Line or LB bearing down on the QB, Ben can pull off plenty of Houdini moves to make something out of nothing. I know many have said that Peyton and Brady wouldn't last a season behind our lines, but you also have to remember that Brady and Manning are making a lot calls at the line that allow for the necessary adjustments to make sure a D lineman or LB doesn't have the opportunity to be breathing down their neck.
     
  23. SteelerBark

    SteelerBark Well-Known Member

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    Ben is a warrior. Ben is a HOFer. Ben is elite.

    BUT perhaps the general consensus on his 'eliteness' would be different without the social and personal miscues earlier in his career.

    To quote TO...'He is my quarterback.' And I'm damn happy about it.
     
  24. Ray D

    Ray D Staff Member Mod Team

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    Bradshaw never got his due while he played either.

    Ben's style of play makes people hesitate to call him elite. His resume is stellar, but week to week, season to season, his STATISTICS don't equal his results. In the era of Fantasy Football, stats are all anyone really looks at, right or wrong.

    I've even been critical of him in the recent past. I don't back down from those criticisms except to say that I'm unreasonably harsh when angry. ;)

    If we want to have an argument about who is "elite," it would help to define what elite actually means. If we go by results, I wouldn't consider Peyton Manning elite. ;)

    Ben has a few problems that seem to keep him out of the discussion: He appears to play sandlot ball more often than commanding an offense. (This is a perception problem more than a reality) He doesn't throw a particularly pretty ball. On deep balls especially, he very often seems inaccurate. And some past off-field behaviors gave him a bad rep, deserved or not.

    But if you only look at things that should matter most - RESULTS - there's few QBs playing today in his class. Brady is the only one coming to mind, and his resume is tainted IMHO.

    Ben will be in the HoF. There's little doubt of that. First ballot IMO. That's all that really needs be said in the long run.
     
  25. TerribleTowelFlying

    TerribleTowelFlying Staff Member Site Admin Mod Team

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    And this is why the "elite" conversation is so silly to me. Elite is one of those words that is loose enough to subjectively say someone who is great at a team sport isn't quite that great.
     

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