2022- No need for overhaul

What happened to that kid Roland Rivers III?

 

I feel better right now since we had a nice showing vs Browns, but are we trending up or was that just a fluke?

We have a lot of holes, and it will take a few years to address them all ... and we won’t replace Ben for quite some time.

We’ll be competitive, but until we get another franchise QB it doesn’t matter. When is the next time we will be in a position to draft one? It took a down year to be able to draft Ben.

 

Agreed, but as a Steeler fan. Defense should never be one of those weaknesses.

 

I don't think we all agree on what it means to "blow up" the team. Just in terms of contracts and cap space, the team is essentially blowing up. This is the biggest rebuild this team will have had since maybe the last time we had a losing season. The reason we have so much cap space is because we don't have the players worthy of high priced contracts. That $ is available for a reason. So this is a rebuild like it or not.

IMO a true blowing up of the team would require a change at the top. I do believe we need a change at the top but I also understand it's not going to happen. I expect we will plug holes, hire some under qualified coordinators to run the team and hope for the best. Odds are we will end up around 8-8 give or take 2 wins/losses. If we make the playoffs we will get more of the same... underachieving losses. The book has been written on MT. He's not a good enough coach to win playoff games. If you want to know how good he will be with a mediocre QB...the last 2 seasons answered that question. Our offense is abysmal and has been for a while. The defense has kept us competitive. Ben, TJ Watt, Hayward, and Minkah have kept us competitive. While Ben has been a mediocre Qb he has done one KEY thing well...protecting the ball. He may not have won us a bunch of games lately but he has also not lost us games. That is some thing we have been spoiled by. A young QB will lose games for you. Most avg QB's will lose games. That's the difference between 8-8 and 4-12.

Since we are not going to get a true over haul of this team the focus should be on repairing the biggest issues:

#1 - Get a good OT and OC. You cannot hand the starting Center job to Green and Moore. You just can't. If we do, we will struggle to win.
#2 - ILB - We have to hope Bush can turn it around...but you can also bring in someone to compete with him for the starting job. Do not assume Bush is our answer in the middle...at the moment he appears to be a total bust.
#2b - NT- We must have depth at DT. the 3-4 does not work without sound play on the D-line
3 - SS - This might be asking for too much but we need an upgrade at SS. Edmunds is a FA and he's been pretty bad at run support. He's the epitome of mediocre IMO. He won't kill you but he also won't help. Hoping a FA signing here can upgrade the position.
4 - Corner - Haden is probably gone. If we can't resign him we need a capable vet. I think drafting a corner early is a mistake.
4- WR - JuJu and Washington are likely gone. Maybe we can resign JuJu at a bargain? If not we really need 2 capable WR's. Claypool needs to fight for playing time. You cannot hand him another free season to squander.

Qb is another conversation. The question is do we bring in a starter or someone to compete with Mason for the starting job? I think drafting a QB with our 1st pick is a mistake. I'd rather see us sign a guy like Matt Ryan. Word is he'll be released. I do not think a trade is going to happen. We have too many needs. If Rodgers, Wilson, Cousin, Ryan, or who ever is available it's gonna be because they become FA's. We could use our #1 pick on the O-line, ILB, DT, WR, or SS. If we use our #1 pick on a QB then I full expect Mason to start. That also means we need to spend big $ in free agency if we want to be competitive. If we draft a QB early then it could be a "punt" season where we don't break the bank on Free Agents at all. We let the rookie and mason fight it out for the QB spot and hope for the best elsewhere. Probably another 8-8 season.

 

That DB group looks awfully weak once you get past Minka and Sutton

 

Our pass rush is the main reason our secondary looks respectable. When Watt is out everyone is wide open. Good Qb's pick them apart. I think Minkah is a great FS. I think Haden is a good corner. Everyone else is avg at best. An upgrade at SS would go a long way to helping this defense. There's something wrong when your FS is better in run support than your SS. We have no choice IMO but to sign a FA corner and SS unless we use a top draft pick on one.

 

I've always steered away from this argument because it's the glass half full or half empty type of thing. On the one hand by the end of the season you can look at the numbers and final standings and say they only beat teams with a winning record here and here, the otherside being that when the Steelers played them they were playing at a higher level than they ended at and should the Steelers be judged by how those teams ended their season?

 

I think the hot button debate for off season is going to be how to use the draft. Are you looking for pure day 1 starters at positions of need or are you looking at eventual replacements for the guys who have been proven to have not worked out. Example would be do you get an early round inside LB knowing this is Bush's last season on his rookie deal because they declined his 5th year option or do you go after a need like solid starters at tackle.

 

A) It's OK that Claypool is average at best for a #2 because he is a #3.

B) Juju had 111 and 97 catches in the full seasons he has been a starter with Ben. Above average for a #2.

C) Ray-Ray deserves some credit for how he stepped up this year. Yes he can be replaced the same as everyone else not named Watt, Heyward or Fitzpatrick.

D) Diontae will get better. Juju won't have better production than 111 catches but not many other #2s will either. Claypool has a long, long ways to go but the reality is this is the worst possible offensive scheme for him.

E) Ebron last year had 56 catches 558 yards 5 TD. This year Freiermuth has 54 for 444 and 7 TD. Freiermuth is better (catch rate 77% is Heathesque). There's no question Freiermuth is better but there isn't another TE2 in the NFL who had 13 TD in a season like Ebron did that I'm aware of. Once again... depth.

Depth. Freiermuth, Johnson and Juju are 3 great receiving targets. How does anyone have a problem with these 3 as primary targets and how is that not above average?

Chase has made some spectacular catches but also shown he lacks the necessary focus to be a top player- I think his ceiling is a 2. So really Claypool is so terrible he brings the whole corps down? It's weird because Claypool's production is better than Martavis Bryant's but everyone loved Martavis and wanted him to stay.

Chase had 11 TD in a season and Ebron had 13 TD. Pretty good 4th and 6th options as part of an "average receiving corps." Not to mention Harris is showing reliable catching ability from the backfield (70 catches 78% completion rate).

If anything the Steelers have spent too much draft capital and attention on the passing game and not enough on the running game. If anything Ben's targets have been too good. Juju cost a 2nd, Chase cost a 2nd, Freiermuth cost a 2nd, Diontae a 3rd etc.

When the Steelers draft a WR and they are bad they are off the roster in 4 years.

When the Steelers draft a WR and they are good they are off the roster in 4 years.


When the Steelers draft an OL and they are bad they are off the roster in 4 years.

When the Steelers draft an OL and they are good they are off the roster in 10 years.

Being a WR factory to achieve Tomlin's dream of an air attack offense has not produced results. Doing even more of the same will not yield better results. Trade up to take a Jamarr Chase or Jaylen Waddle? Just Ditka it?

I do not want the WR corps to ever be better than this. I'd prefer it to be worse. It is certainly above average- our OC and 39 year-old QB and bottom tier OL are not allowing for a variety of routes or space. The WRs will not pass your eye test next year either unless we get a veteran QB. It is what it is. Expect to be disappointed for at least 2 seasons on the WR front. Let's just get Jameis so these WR can put up video game numbers see what they can do. It's a lot more than what we saw this season no doubt about that at all.

 

I agree for the most part. I think the Steelers under Tomlin arrogantly look past opponents like talking about the Patriots before the Jags loss. So in that sense they look past or play down whatever you want to call it. But teams often play the Steelers harder than other teams especially in our division where we are hated- so I don't think there are many easy games.

The Steelers beat the Titans who are the 1 seed today I believe; but were absolutely stomped by the Chiefs who I think are the best AFC team. So it's hard to tell from that standpoint as well.

 

Need to focus on the LOS. Steelers have been picking skill positions high for years and are losing in the trenches big time. Need a stud DT and the Steelers are good at drafting those Ziggy Hood notwithstanding. BPA OL or DL imo. If Bush recovers physically he will be more than adequate.

 

C'mon, man. You're doubling down on Ebron? Really? The guy's last game as a Steeler is tomorrow. BTW, number of offensive snaps Ebron has seen in the last six weeks starting from Week 12 and going to Week 17. Zero, zilch, zip, nada, nil, egg.

JuJu's a free agent and his 111 catch season was four seasons ago. With AB on the other side. Two of the last 3 seasons he hasn't been able to finish it out.

No idea what we'll get out of Claypool. Absolutely none. His career is in real limbo right now. And he's a #2, cause he ain't a slot receiver, that's JuJu if he comes back.

Ray-Ray is a JAG.

That's what we got. That's not above average.

 

Ebron is on IR though so one would have to think his snaps are zero, if not the Steelers are violating league rules

 

The three full seasons Juju played with Ben he averaged 85 catches for 1,028 yards and 7 TD and caught 70% of targets. You can keep running him down if you want but I love him as a Hines Ward/Anquan Boldin type of physical possession receiver.

If Juju stays then the slot could be crowded. Diontae can play there also. Chase is an outside receiver and could be the 4th receiver. You're putting way too much importance on him as a means of attacking Diontae and Juju and the corps as a whole.

Ebron not getting snaps proves my point more than it hurts it- Gentry is playing well.

Once a player gets in Tomlin's doghouse they don't get out. Ebron drops the ball. OK he's done. You're being incredibly unrealistic about the stats other TE2 have put up in their careers- we are talking 13 catches in a season not 13 TD. Was Jarvis better than James? Blake better than Boykin? Scott better than Starks? Hood better than Heyward? Why was David Johnson on the team for years?

Tomlin doesn't start the best player- he starts the player he likes best. More often than not a person likes the best player the most but this isn't always true for Tomlin. I don't accept snap counts as a strong argument for performance. An example this year is look how much better Hassenhaur (spelling) and Leglue have performed than Green and Dotson. Why didn't they get the snaps? They are playing the best.

Ebron deserves blame for his drops. They've persisted through his career which is why he will be on his 4th team next year. He is still an athletic tight end that managed to make a Pro Bowl and I still say that if your second tight end, oh you corrected me, third string tight end made a Pro Bowl that's pretty good no?

Your argument is that teams with average receiving target groups have two 100 catch receivers and their third string tight end made a Pro Bowl... makes no sense. Sorry. Not buying it.

- Bad OL limiting all receivers route trees and minimizing space to cover for defenders

- No running game

- Bad OC running a similar offense to Fichtner far less effectively

- QB who has not been consistently effective after an arm injury and being 39

Those factors hurt the passing game. The receivers are talented but often underachieve- that's sort of the theme for all personnel groups lately minus the OL which just isn't talented. Seems like a common thread.

 

i believe people are getting too excited about the 40+ million they have to spend. it is not going to go as far as you might think.

first of all teams like to keep about 8 million in reserve in the event they have injuries and need to pick up free agents on the fly.
next the projected 40+ figure is derived from a roster payroll that only includes 39 active contracts not 53.
plus you have rookie contracts to subtract.

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/pittsburgh-steelers/cap/2022/

 

Spot on. Coaching changes you note are 100% needed. Bring in Quality OL CB n vet DL to fill in needs go into draft n ger more talent

 

I agree with most points throughout this thread.

The one thing I want to touch on is C Kendrick Green. By no means am I implying Green will wear a yellow jacket someday nor even make a single Pro Bowl, but I'm not totally ready to give up on him. It took Dawson a couple of years sitting behind Mike Webster before he got his chance. I think sitting behind a proven Vet for a season or two will do Green wonders. I agree he sucked this season, but I think once he learns C he will be fine.

 

Offensive line needs attention first and foremost. Our 39-year-old future Hall of Fame QB is galloping off into the sunset. I can't anticipate the Steelers spending draft capital and big money on a marquis QB should any be available, i.e., Rodgers, Watson, Wilson. Like it or not, they are going into a season for the first time in 18 years with more questions than answers there. So, you better be physical up front and you better be able to run the football efficiently. Additionally, whatever Canada's philosophy is, it isn't working and I, for one have no confidence in his ability at the pro level. He needs to go, and they need a proven commodity that is able to adapt to the team he has, not the opposite. We do have a damn fine young RB who will have a year of experience under his belt. I think in addition to fixing the line, it might be a good idea to try and land a reliable back-up in FA. I'm okay with them standing pat at WR next year. I like DJ as a #1. He works hard, doesn't complain and isn't a diva. Considering Rudolph and Washington have a rapport dating back to their college days, it could benefit both if Washington is brought back. Claypool needs to work with someone in the offseason on his ball skills. Don't know what their plans are for Smith-Schuster. Even though I'm not necessarily a fan of some of his social media stuff, the guy is a good football player. He is a Hines Ward type. So, if they can keep him, all the better. I'm not as hard on McCloud as some here are. I also agree that he's easily replaceable. I'd like to see a FA brought in that scares other teams in the return game at the very least. Freiermuth is going to be a solid, if not great TE. Rader is a decent back up. Ebron can go kick rocks, I don't care what he did two years ago, four years ago or whatever. At his vet salary, he's not worth keeping around. Neither is Derrick Watt for that matter, not at his price. Another thought of mine is that unless by some miracle they can move up and grab Pickett (which I don't see as even a remote possibility), I'd rather they didn't waste their first rounder on a QB. I don't believe their future starter is in this draft after him.

I expect the offense to struggle to average 17 points a game next year, so your defense better at least be able to stop the run and get off the field on third down. The interior is a concern especially depending on what Tuitt does. That, and how much can they depend on 35-year-old Tyson Alualu coming back from a major injury? And a still awesome but aging Cam Heyward? They have some intriguing unknowns to be sure. It would be nice if they could get a proven run stuffer. I don't think Alex Highsmith will ever be a superstar, but he's rounding into a pretty damn good football player. Outside of depth at OLB'er, they're good there. I don't think Schobert was all that bad and a stout interior line would help his play. I really don't know what to expect from Devon Bush moving forward, but if he doesn't improve next year, they need to cut their losses and move on. At least bring in another decent vet in the middle or maybe address it through the draft or hope Buddy Johnsoin can play at the NFL level. They might have caught lightning in a bottle with Witherspoon. I'd still like to see them draft a high round CB. Not a project like they love to do, but a proven commodity. Edmunds needs to go. They can get someone else and not have to pay a vet contract to do what he does. Sign Minkah. This defense desperately needs to get its swagger back. Some of the performances this season were depressing. Butler can move on, too. FFS again, go outside the organization and spend the money on an up-and-coming guy, or get a proven commodity to bring some attitude back to this defense, like we saw last Monday night.

My rather unpopular opinion is that they don't need to replace Tomlin, but I think this philosophy of promoting assistants from within needs to go. New ideas, fresh enthusiasm and coaches that can design game plans around what they have and not what they as individuals want to do. I simply ask myself for all the troubles this team had this season, the injuries, covid, ineffective play, how many other coaches would have this team in a position to possibly make the playoffs? Short list, my friends. Damn short list.

The preceding is me thinking out loud. It's not blowing the team up which I was actually in favor of last offseason. They didn't do that, obviously. So, they do have some pieces to work with. They could be more competitive next season, but they need doubles, triples and an occasional home run in this year's draft and free agency period. Moving forward, let's all hope and pray it doesn't take them 21 years to find another franchise QB.

 

Just an fyi..its really hard to put much stock into well thought out rants. .. when you don't even know who is on roster and who is on IR

"Kendrick Green is better than Mike Webster... Webster has zero snaps this year"


Hack

 

The issue with your comparison of Leglue and Hassenuer vs Dotson and Green is that it's one game vs a depleted Browns squad that was mathematically eliminated and whose sole motivation for playing is that Garrett and Clowney have popped off in the media about ruining Ben's final game. We can add in Klemm being out of his depth and injuries on offense contributing as well. Tomorrow's game should be a better litmus test as the Ravens need to win to keep their spot looking good and the Steelers need it badly just to keep the odds of a post season spot alive. It should be a better sample for who is better.

 

Leglue has played 5 games now but you're right that it's a small sample size.

 

You're right. I was mistaken.

At the same time, how many more snaps do you think Ebron takes in a Steeler uniform?

 

I'm pretty sure he wasn't in the plan long term as his deal is expiring so it is a real possibility he has played his last game for them.

 

I would disagree because right now our WRs are not able to stretch the field with Canada and Ben not throwing anything over 5 yards.

The Cleveland game Ben had an avg yds per attempt of 2.7 yards.

Not sure how you can judge the WRs when no one is allowed to get open down the field?

 

This is a reasonable response. So yes, you can say it's tough to judge which I acknowledged, but that also means you can't say they're above average either. It's an imcomplete.