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Felix Jones vs. Rashard Mendenhall

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by defva, Apr 17, 2021.

  1. zcoop

    zcoop Well-Known Member

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    Don't forget about the Ints. If you're gonna cite the fumble, you must include them.
     
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  2. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    I mean.. Yeah. Isn't that what we're doing here? Talking about the games? Assigning blame and credit as they should be allocated, instead of what the stats say or what the announcer said or even what the majority of fans think? There are valid excuses. AKA reasons. Reminds me of a conversation I had once about this play.

    "I can't believe Jeff Garcia threw a pick-six in overtime."

    "Well, I don't know, I mean it hit Terrell Owens right in the hands, and he bobbled it and practically handed it right to the defende-"

    "OH EXCUSES, EXCUSES! You can blame anyone you want, doesn't change the fact he threw an interception."

    "Okie-dokie."

    Mendenhall isn't without fault on the play, but that's the kind of fumble that happens. To me it was worse than just a missed block, it was more like throwing your receiver right into a linebacker.
     
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  3. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    That was T.O.s fault. The Pick 6:thumbs_up:
     
  4. hmmmmm

    hmmmmm Well-Known Member

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    Barry Sanders had to make three guys miss just to get back to the line of scrimmage. Pretty sure his O-line was garbage.
     
  5. TuRnDoWnForWaTT

    TuRnDoWnForWaTT Well-Known Member

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    I get what you are saying about INT's. There are lots of examples where QBs get charged for INTs that can directly be attributed to receivers.

    As for fumbles we will have to agree to disagree. Once a running back gets the ball cleanly it's on him to protect the ball. There are missed blocks, blown assignments, and great defensive efforts on every single play. Mendenhall put the ball on the turf. To me that's 100% on him.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2021
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  6. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    Or he was always looking for the big run ...instead of 3, or 4 yards.
    This is going 2 be extremely....I mean extremely unpopular, but I don't know how the Greatest RB is some peoples minds ...was routinely taken off the field in Goal line situations...because of fear of loss of Yards in the backfield.
    Of course the answer will be ....his line sucked.
    His Line sucked the Whole time he Played?
    Funny thing excuses...How they work for One player , Coach, and Not others.
    Now was he the greatest open field runner ever ...Maybe, but greatest RB .....Never.
    Also this is not aimed at You OP.
    Just seen B .Sanders, and Posted.
     
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  7. TuRnDoWnForWaTT

    TuRnDoWnForWaTT Well-Known Member

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    I share your assessment my friend.
     
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  8. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    Hard disagree here. His line was garbage, as was his coaching. The trope, "Barry lost yards because he gambled, refusing to take the sure 3-4 yards, and in the end loses 2" has always been wrong. If he had a hole to run through, he took it. Yes there were times when he had nothing in front and so he tried another avenue, and it didn't work. That's what happens when you are a bell cow back for 10 years and have a bad OL for most of it. Does anybody think he should have been plowing his body into his center's ass for maybe a yard, and sacrificing all those gains? It reminds me of the "Troy Polamalu struggles in coverage" line. Just an edgy take someone like Skip Bayless tried out, and it caught on. Take a look at Barry's highlights, and you'll see that in most of them he does have a hole, and he absolutely explodes through it. The reason he has so many runs for negative yardage is not that he was hesitant or slow to hit a hole. Are you kidding? With that line, if he saw a hole he was thrilled. He has a lot of negative yardage because for most of his career there was no other threat to the defense (certainly not anything as scary as Barry Sanders), so they zeroed in on him, dared the offense to pass, and he still was getting hand-offs. He was regularly surrounded in the backfield, would make 2 guys miss, dive forward and still lose a yard. Cue the peanut gallery: "Yep, that's what you get with Barry! Gotta take the bad with the good." I'd also liken it to the way Jerome Bettis' YPC is low, because in an unusually high percentage of his carries, all 11 defenders knew he was getting the ball. If he got stuffed at the line or only gained 1, that's bad on the stats, but it doesn't really reflect Bettis' ability. It actually shows how much defenses respected him.

    Barry was pulled off the goal line because they didn't want to risk injury. They figured if all they wanted was some big guy slamming into the line, they could get anyone to do that. I disagreed with that approach at the time, because there's more to goal line running than slamming (Marcus Allen was great), and they pulled him at the goal line to their own detriment. Then again, I get wanting to protect Barry from wear and tear. And hell, dude was still the best back in the NFL in his 30s, so maybe that was the right move in the long run.

    And Barry was more than just quick and fast, he was also a very intelligent player. The notion that he would dance around in the backfield for a chance at more yards when they're already at the 1 yard line is ridiculous. He was not an idiot. He was also extremely powerful. He was a power back in addition to being a burner and the greatest open-field runner, he just doesn't get credit for it because his other talents were more noticeable, and he powered through tackles smoother than a Jerome Bettis or Mike Alstott type. Guys would just slide off him.

    It's funny to see people think he's overrated. I think he's one of the most underrated players I've ever seen. To me he's a slam dunk for greatest RB of all time (although I don't like to compare players from different eras), and it's absolutely bonkers that while he was showing the world he's the best, the consensus was he was on the same level (or even below!) guys like Emmett Smith and Terrell Davis. Jeez, if Barry was on either of those teams, he'd probably have more than one 2500 yard season. To me he's as far ahead of the RB pack as Jerry Rice is ahead of other WRs. But Jerry had support.
     
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  9. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    Your opinion, and mine differ. That's fine. I don't need 2 watch highlights. I watched the games.
    Stats were made for this type of player IMO.
    Nobody wants 2 tell you that at times he played they had not 1, but two ...1000 yard Wrs also.
    Like I said IMO.
    Also you can say almost every player can be different on another team if you really want 2 . Hell he might have went 2 the Dolphins, and Marino took away a bunch of his runs . Then I guess it would be Marinos fault
    Would've, should've, could've.
    Remember...I don't hate your opinion. I just don't agree :thumbs_up:
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2021
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  10. TuRnDoWnForWaTT

    TuRnDoWnForWaTT Well-Known Member

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    I will have this debate with you if you like. First off, the narrative that the Detriot Lions lacked adequate coaching is completely false. During most of Sanders career the Lions coaching was actually pretty damn good. Wayne Fontes led the Lions to the playoffs every year but 1 from 90 to 95. They went to 1 NFCCG and won the NFC Central twice. Please keep in mind this is during the Cowboys - 49ers era of dominance. This is also during the rise of young Brett Favre, who also played in the NFC Central.

    The offensive line being "garbage" is also a false narrative. The 90's Lions O-Line was average, but far from garbage. The Lions had quite an offensive team. I will admit the Lions line was no where near the level of the Dallas Cowboys Cowboys of that era. But by what standards do you label them as garbage? This was one of the best offenses in football at that time. The Lions ran the ball well, and protected the QB well. Moving the ball was not the Lions issue in the 90's.

    I enjoyed the career of Barry Sanders. He was a human highlight reel as a running back. I agree with you. He is one of the best to ever do it. But what he was incapable of, was picking up a tough 3 yards in a cloud of dust. What he was incapable of was falling forward for an extra yard or two after contact. As dynamic as he was, he was easily shut down during key games. For as good as he was, he was unable to ball out when it mattered most.

    I wouldn't say Barry Sanders was "overrated" by any stretch. But I will say he was a player that was not without his faults, and as time passes by, it is easy to gloss over those faults.
     
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  11. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    Wow, that is really quite an opinion. Takes guts to type it, so props, I guess.

    I know he's not known for "falling forward" like, let's say Jerome Bettis, but to say he was incapable of it makes me wonder how much you watched him play beyond the highlights. You describe him like all he had was speed, and would go down on contact. First of all, he was famous for his powerful lower body, and he could absolutely push forward for a yard. But the bigger point is, that wasn't really his style, because he was after more. It wasn't just arm tackles he was breaking. He could get all the way through attempted tackles that would have brought down another back, and then he had the quickness and smoothness to actually run away from everyone instead of losing all his momentum like a normal human. It makes no sense to criticize him for not falling forward for an extra yard on a play where he broke the tackle entirely and ran for 20 more yards.

    I checked youtube for a full game, so I could see some non-highlight runs, and I wasn't disappointed. The first one that came up was a 1997 game against the Dolphins. It's a pretty standard ordinary game for Barry, no iconic runs, just the usual.

    10:30 - Second carry of the game. George Teague has a good hit on him, Barry runs through it without really breaking stride. If you digitally removed Teague, it wouldn't look much different. And that's coming right off of an attempted tackle from a DT who clipped his heels, so Barry wasn't at full speed or power. The announcers discuss how strong Barry is. Does this count? We're only 2 carries in.

    11:49 - Third carry, Teague hits him just outside the 10, Barry goes down at the 8.

    13:03 - Not a great play for the Lions, coming up short of the first down. But isn't this exactly what y'all are saying he can't do? There's nowhere to go, he's stuck at the 10, defenders everywhere, and he knifes/dives forward to the 7 (marked down at the 8). This was a "cloud of dust" play.

    28:03 - Zach Thomas has a clean shot right on his body. Barry is mildly annoyed. I feel like this play might be a good characterization of our debate. I could see you saying, "Didn't you see that safety bring him down and Barry only dragged him for 1.5 yards upfield? That's not enough, a real power back would have dragged him for 3 or 4 yards." And I'm like, "Did you see Barry shed Zach Thomas like he was a kindergartener?"

    30:13 - Hit by defenders at the 40, goes down at the 42.

    32:06 - Hit by defenders at the 42, goes down at the 40.

    47:49 - Barry opts out of the cloud of dust in favor of more yards. Gets jumped on at the 17 by an LB, another guy grabbing at him, goes down at the 21.

    51:33 - Impressive blitz pick-up for someone who struggles to fall forward.

    52:10 - More yards after contact.

    53:50 - Not a ton of yards, but again, maybe what you're looking for. Met right at the first down marker by multiple defenders. Falls forward for an additional yard.

    1:05:36 - This is the closest thing I found to a play matching the criticism of him. There's nowhere to go, but he does take a step back and cost himself 2 yards. He goes down at the 19, but if he hadn't taken the risk, he probably would have made it to the 21. However, it's worth noting that this was not a play with potential for success in the first place. He didn't pass up a hole or even a gain. He was already trapped and surrounded, trying to dig his way out of a hole. It's the only play I found like that in this game.

    1:18:44 - First contact at the 48, then the 46, then 45, goes down at the 43.

    This is just one game, one example, but it was truly selected at random, and I think it's a fair sample. I don't know how you can talk about Barry Sanders' power as if it was a liability. Yes you will be able to point to plays where he didn't fall forward, where the first guy got him. I can find plays of your favorite "cloud of dust" back doing the same. That happens. Everyone misses shots, everyone strikes out, everyone gets tackled without YAC. But it's pretty silly to say Barry couldn't power through tackles. He did it all the time. Sometimes he'd only get an extra yard or two, which some people get more satisfaction out of because it can look more impressive, and other times he'd break it cleaner and faster and keep running.

    I make the case his power has always been underrated (at least by the casual fan), but I don't remember anyone making the case that he lacked it, that speed was all he had. Not even back then. What are you basing it on?

    Does anyone think that if you point to an important game and he had 10 carries for 25 yards, that means he didn't ball out because of his own performance? Barry Sanders is a choke artist? He was scared of the big moment? Does this even apply to running backs at all? Some young quarterbacks, I could see that. Maybe a basketball player shoots badly in the clutch. I never heard someone make this case about any running back before. There are a million reasons why a great RB ends a game without many yards. It has more to do with the rest of the team, and the other team. I think you know that.
     
  12. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    Barry or Sweetness is the greatest rb I've seen in my lifetime.. Emmit my arse.



    Nfl network did a good "a football life" on Barry, that kid was a winner.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2021
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  13. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    People can choke in any single aspect of any single thing.
    I can't even get into all the examples of this.
    If you really think about it ...You know its true.
     
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  14. Roonatic

    Roonatic Well-Known Member

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    Like thinking Barry wasn't good on the goal line? ;)
     
  15. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Walter P., but I don't agree with the B. Sanders. Not a bit. Was he the greatest open field runner ever....maybe.
    Also I need no highlights. Seen the games.
    This is another reason I hate stats.
    He would average about 99 yards a game ( career) ,but what most won't say is most of that would come on 2 plays.
    Sure could have used him on those others plays.

    5 playoffs games 1 TD 386 yards rushing. If he was a Steelers RB people would be calling for his head.
    Guess what you do in the Playoffs only matter if your a Steelers.
    None of this is aimed at the OP.
     
  16. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    You might be right about that, I've met some truly stupid Steelers fans over the years haha. "Barry must go!" threads every after every loss. I can totally see it.

    A lot of Lions fans didn't like Barry either, after he retired. They said it was a betrayal after everything the team had given him. Yes, some people really did see it that way.
     
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  17. HugeSnack

    HugeSnack Well-Known Member

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    Barry would crumble under the pressure of being inside the 5. He'd fall down from sheer panic, or run backwards hoping it would turn into a 20 yard game. I kept yelling at my screen, "Barry, you only need one yard for a touchdown!" But he insisted he could get more.
     
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  18. jeh1856

    jeh1856 Beer is good

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    I lived in Chicago during his prime and the SB. He was the type of player you admired like Clemente. His work ethic and character was incredible.
     
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  19. TuRnDoWnForWaTT

    TuRnDoWnForWaTT Well-Known Member

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    This was a great response, and it deserves a counter response that's worthy. I just haven't had the time today. I didnt want you to think I was ducking you. ;)

    One thing is for sure. I don't need to see the highlights. I am going to guess that the 90s are an era that we both know pretty damn well. Otherwise we probably would not be discussing Barry Sanders.
     
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  20. TuRnDoWnForWaTT

    TuRnDoWnForWaTT Well-Known Member

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    One of the biggest problems I see on the board, is members assuming that criticism is hate. For instance, if you throw out there that Mike Tomlin is awful at clock management, it comes across as shade, even though it is really just pointing out an obvious flaw in Tomlin's coaching. This Barry Sanders thing is no different. I consider him to have been a great player. That being said he had some obvious flaws in his game. Those flaws keep me from considering him as the G.O.A.T. I also think that those flaws kept the Lions from being a serious contender during the 90's

    I said earlier that Barry Sanders was incapable of picking up the tough yards. Incapable is a strong word. Maybe it is unwilling. Either way he very often couldn't / didn't pick up those tough yards.

    I am in no way suggesting that Sanders was only a "speed" back as you suggest. I consider him a burst / change of direction back. His ability to hit 5th gear and change direction on the drop of a dime was amazing. But those are skills that can only be utilized once you get to the 2nd level of the defense. That is where Barry Sanders struggled. If he got past the line, Barry was going to rip off a long run. If Barry didn't get past the line, he would dance his way to a 2 yard loss. That sort of mentality hurts an offense. I think it hurt the Lions in the 90's.

    You posted some non-highlight runs of Sanders. I can assure you I watched him play. The late 80's thru the 90's were prime-time for me as a football fan. There wasn't a game that was available to watch, that I didn't. I could post some really non-highlight runs of Sanders if you want me to. I'm sure youtube has plenty of footage of Sanders taking losses, as there are a lot of Lions fans that agree with me on Sanders.

    As for Sanders getting it done when it mattered most, he flat out did not. Barry Sanders played in 6 playoff games throughout his career. Of those 6 games he ran for over 100 yards only once. Sanders averaged 4.0 yards per carry or under in 4 of those 6 games. I wouldn't necessarily say he choked, as you say. You can call it whatever you want. But in the games that mattered most Barry Sanders did not have elite performances. Other running backs of that era did. Compare Emmitt Smith's playoff stats with Sanders and let me know what you come up with.

    I see Sanders as the most talented open field running back in the history of the NFL. There is more to being a running back than that. Sometimes you have to pick up 4 yards running off your Center's hip. That is part of what makes a running back a complete player.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2021
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  21. TuRnDoWnForWaTT

    TuRnDoWnForWaTT Well-Known Member

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    You are actually being too kind. Barry gained those 386 yards over the course of 6 games, not 5. Ouch!!!:eek:
     
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  22. The Sodfather

    The Sodfather Well-Known Member

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    I agree. I'd prefer players kept those things to themselves, you know the old adage about arguing over religion and politics. But, your point is well made. If people want to criticize his play, fine. His politics/religion has nothing to do with it. I happen to think they reached using a number one pick on him. But, i thought the guy played hard and I wouldn't call him a bust in the classic sense. Some guys are born football players, body, heart and soul. I'd say Mendehall had the physical attributes to play football, but it was just a means to an end for him. It's difficult to measure someones heart.
     
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  23. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was 5 . My bad. Yes that makes it pretty bad. Adding in 1 td period ... also.
     
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  24. hmmmmm

    hmmmmm Well-Known Member

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    I think some of his playoff problems was they were typically a one dimensional team ( that doesn’t work in the playoffs). An additional point when he played the Redskins the field was very sloppy (I think it rained and they refused to cover the field) slowing him down. I felt if they played that game on turf the lions would have won easily. That was their most complete team.
     

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