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Tomlin resume the last 10 years...

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by steel_ben7, Jan 18, 2021.

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  1. HeinzMustard

    HeinzMustard Well-Known Member

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    Noll's 1980's = Tomlin's 2010's

    Only difference is... Tomlin had an All Pro RB, All Pro WR, Franchise QB with 2 Super Bowl wins from 2013-2018. For the most part Noll had only mediocre players to work with after most of the 70's Super Steelers retired. At least Noll had a good excuse for an average decade.
     
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  2. Spencer

    Spencer Well-Known Member

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    I'm tired of hearing about the Steelers stability of the team having so few coaches. The only one that has stability is Tomlin from not losing his job. The Steelers probably handed him more talented players than any coach we have had. When have you ever seen the influence of our coaching staff or tomlin take over a game or be the X-factor of a games win ? We lose in the playoffs because usually, the best arrive come playoff time. Come playoff time, coaching is huge for wins and Tomlin doesn't have it. This talk about Tomlin never having a losing season is crap.. Win four games against a crummy Bengals and Browns team for so many years and it's not difficult to win at least 4 more out of 12. Terry Bradshaw said it right, what does Tomlin do ?
     
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  3. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    Someone listens 2 Collin Cowherd 2 much. People like 2 say this, and I'm not sticking up 4 Tomlin. It's just I hear that a lot. In reality 3, or 4 times since he's been a coach here (again not sticking up 4 him) 3 teams from our AFCN have made the playoffs. Also in that time... 3 times the AFCN have represented the SB. So take it however you like. Example... I know teams like N.E. never had 2 worry about that.
     
  4. BURGH43STEL

    BURGH43STEL Well-Known Member

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    If you tired leave the program. Simple right? Probably? You must be out of your mind. The 70's Steelers were probably the greatest talented teams assembled in the Superbowl era. They were able to keep the 70's teams together because FA didn't exists.

    WTF is the X-factor that coaches are supposed to supply? Players win or loss games by their performances.

    The Steelers typically loss games in the playoffs because they made mistakes on the field ie TURNOVERS.

    It's difficult to win in the NFL regardless of the opposition a team faces. I am not sure why you don't realize this by now???????????????
     
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  5. BURGH43STEL

    BURGH43STEL Well-Known Member

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    The NFL is set up this way. NE is the exception and not the rule. Just like the 70's Steelers, 80's Niners, 90's Cowboys were all exceptions to the rules.

    Since Tomlin became HC only 2 coaches won 2 or more Superbowls. Only 5 HC's(Bellichick, Reid, Carrol, Tomlin, and Coughlin) coached their teams to two or more Superbowls. How many HC's helped their teams make it to the playoffs 9 out of 14 seasons?

    I don't know but when organizations have a good HC they better attempt to keep him. Tomlin isn't perfect and never will be. That man finds ways to help this team compete for the playoffs and Superbowl more than most HC's in the NFL. That claim can only be made about a handful of HC's.

    Oh well good luck to the next guy living up to the standards that were set.
     
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  6. Thor

    Thor

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    And only about a handful of teams had the collection of talent Tomlin had. Your logic on Tomlin's track record nimbly oscillates between stating the players are to blame for failures and meriting him for Pittsburgh's success.

    While I definitely think he's been overcriticized at times, I think that has lead some to overcompensating when talking of the team's performance under him. It's a polarizing subject.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
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  7. Lloyd&Green

    Lloyd&Green Well-Known Member

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    So why doesn’t Tomlin get some credit for drafting and developing these talented players? Why doesn’t he get at least some credit for replenishing the talent?

    Most of the Tomlin criticism is inconsistent, hypocritical and all over the place. Can you name the years that the Steelers should’ve won the SB under Tomlin and it was his coaching that came up short?

    Anybody who has actually paid attention knows that injuries and having a QB who turns the ball over in the playoffs despite him being a future HOFer are the biggest factors in the Steelers not getting back to the SB in the last 10 years.
     
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  8. KnoxVegasSteel

    KnoxVegasSteel Well-Known Member

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    Yep, and 2 out of the past 4 seasons, he has missed the playoffs and the other 2 years he was 1 and done and got embarrassed by being woefully unprepared and seriously outcoached by the browns, the f@#%ing browns, and the jagoffs? I mean WTF, talk about underachieving and not being prepared. And this is the most recent sample set. In 14 seasons here, he has missed the postseason 5 times and gone 1 and done 5 times. That's 10 out of 14 years, more than two-thirds of the time, that he has choked. If that isn't the definition of mediocrity, then I don't know what is.

    Especially when he had a HOF QB, the best WR in the NFL, the best RB in the NFL on the field AT THE SAME TIME. That just puts an exclamation point on the fact that Tomlin can't get it done.

    But hey, on to next non-losing season. Cause tHe StAnDaRd Is ThE sTaNdArD.
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021
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  9. KnoxVegasSteel

    KnoxVegasSteel Well-Known Member

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    Then by your logic, why even have coaches? Why pay Tomlin $10M a year to do nothing? Because according to you, the only thing that equates to failure (because any success is all due to Tomlin :rolleyes:) is the players screwing up, not executing, and getting themselves hurt. I'm finding it real hard to not insult your intelligence, but come on man.
     
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  10. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    Hey...I agree with a lot of this, but I never thought Bell was the best back in the league. Never. I was terrified they were going 2 over pay him. On Tomlin. 2 be honest, I'm torn. I honestly see both sides 2 the argument.
     
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  11. santeesteel

    santeesteel

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    With Tomlin's appearance on "Real Sports", if he were to be fired now, it would make the Rooney's look really bad. He'll probably be extended.
     
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  12. Lloyd&Green

    Lloyd&Green Well-Known Member

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    What did coaching or the team being unprepared have to do with Ben throwing 3 picks in the first half against the Browns? How did coaching play a role in Pouncey snapping the ball over Ben’s head for a Browns TD on the first possession?

    Name the playoff games where Ben played like a HOF with Brown-Bell playing like the best wr-rb in the league in which the Steelers lost due to coaching?

    at the bought of someone like you questioning anyone else’s intelligence.
     
  13. KnoxVegasSteel

    KnoxVegasSteel Well-Known Member

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    So, let me make sure I'm following your logic here.

    You are saying that Tomlin is a great coach. He holds no responsibility when the team loses. The reason for the team losing is because players make mistakes and fail to execute. Your "proof" is a handful of mistakes by a small minority of players.

    Mmmm-K, got it.

    You choose to just ignore the mistakes made by your beloved Tomlin. You choose to ignore the crappy hires he has made on his staff and then scapegoated when they choked. You choose to ignore the importance of preparation, scheming, adjusting in game. You choose to solely transfix your mind on a handful of mistakes made by a small minority of players in a specific game.

    Let me ask you a question. How many mistakes do you think players on an NFL team make in an average football game? Is it 5? 10? 15? Whatever that number is, every team makes them. Do steelers players make more mistakes per game than their competition?

    Look, I acknowledge that poor execution and mistakes on the field hurt the team. I acknowledge that injuries to key players hurts the team and chances of winning. These things contribute, but to say that the only reason the steelers have underperformed is because players screw up is not completely true.

    The good teams find a way to still win by having the right game plan, scheme, situational play calling, adjustments. Those are coaching responsibilities. The fact is that Tomlin coached teams have a long and well chronicled history of playing down to the competition, not being prepared, getting outcoached. If you argue against that fact, you are just being unrealistic and have your head buried in the sand. It is the head coach who is responsible for ensuring these things don't happen. That his team is prepared from a game plan and strategy standpoint, from a scheme standpoint, from a play calling standpoint, from a mental standpoint, from a discipline standpoint. Tomlin coached squads are too often not prepared. And that is the responsibility of the head coach.

    These failures keep happening yet nothing changes. And you want to completely absolve Tomlin of any responsibility or accountability. Like I've said before, when you are the chief, you are responsible for how your people show up and perform. Comes with the territory. Underperformance is a hallmark of Tomlin-coached teams. When does your boy get to share some liability for the continual choking of the team that he coaches?
     
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  14. Lloyd&Green

    Lloyd&Green Well-Known Member

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    I stopped right here because clearly you didn’t read my post in good faith.

    You’re not following my logic, you’re coming at me with your ready made narratives and talking points. I didn’t speak on Tomlin’s abilities as a coach. I asked you specific questions about what you said in reference to Tomlin supposedly being a subpar coach.
    So you saw that very powerful segment on how blacks are still being discriminated against in coaching.........and your take away was “man the Rooney’s would look bad if they fire Tomlin now”?

    This is why things will never change. Black athletes need to understand this and come to grips with it.
     
  15. santeesteel

    santeesteel

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    No I didn't see it, I read about it in a news article. Are people genuinely being discriminated against? I don't know. To us, as fans, Bienemy not being chosen as a head coach makes no sense. Maybe there's more to it. Maybe he's not really head coach material. Todd Bowles wasn't. Herm Edwards wasn't, really. Norv Turner wasn't.............Just because people claim discrimination doesn't make it so. Not everything is about race!
     
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  16. lewisha

    lewisha Well-Known Member

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    I am not a Tomlin fan, but the answer to this is simple; if Tomlin can make a Super Bowl ( hell even a conference championship, although I am still pissed about a warm-weather team coming in in freezing temps and winning at Heinz) in the next five years, he will prove To be an exceptional coach. He probably, at the most, has 2 years with Ben, and then he will have another QB. Colbert has been above average in getting good talent in the door.

    IMO, I see the next 5 years producing 2 things; first, an end to Tomlin never having a losing season, second, the Steelers finishing at least once at the bottom of the division. The other 3 teams in the division all now have better QBs than the Steelers, and better coaches. When other teams already know what schemes and plays you are going to run because “we do what we do”, you are being out-coached. When your offense is limited to what it can run because of QBs limitations, your gonna get outplayed on the QB side.
    Not knowing the inner workings of the Steelers, I am not sure the second point is Tomlins fault ( if he bowed up could he force Rooney’s to let Ben go, or does he get dictated as to who the QB is?)
     
  17. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    Just a Question on the better QBs part. By what stat , or record is " the other 3 teams in the Division all now have better QBs than the Steelers " show true. Now if you said the Other 3 QBs in the division have cheaper QBs than the Steelers.....Well...I would say true.
    Only 1 of those QBs has a chance at being better, and He's coming off a big injury.
     
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  18. lewisha

    lewisha Well-Known Member

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    Jackson, Burrow ( injury, smaller sample size), even Brandon Allen, had more yards per attempt than Ben. And when Ben is throwing it anywhere from 120-250 more times a year, that’s not a good formula. The only QB Ben was better than statistically was Mayfield, but Mayfield had 5 less INTs and .8 more yards per attempt. Plus, Baker I’m gonna say was better due to 1 very big stat; 1-0 last year in the play-offs at Heinz field.
     
  19. lewisha

    lewisha Well-Known Member

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    Also, you are totally correct, price tag of the QB Plays a large part in this. And Ben is the most expensive, so less bang for the buck, so to speak. I would put Ben and Lamar rankings as 4A and 4B. Baker 1 ( not coming off an injury, stays within a game plan, doesn’t try to take over a game), Burrow 2 ( more talent, but coming off an injury in what is traditionally a dysfunctional franchise) , and Ben and Lamar both have shown if you can game plan to stop what they are good at ( Ben short passes, throwing 30+ times a game, Lamar, put him in 2nd-3rd and longs and make him pass in coverage situations) they are limited. So yes, due to salary, upside, etc, I would rank Ben dead last of AFC QBs. As a fan, praying his deep to intermediate passes will be better with a year recovery from surgery behind him. But...... he will be a year older, also.
     
  20. bigbenhotness

    bigbenhotness Well-Known Member

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    The 2 common factors of this bad decade were Ben and Tomlin.
     
  21. Steel Hog

    Steel Hog Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure stats tell everything about QB's as you're alluding to. My eyes can see who i'd want to be my QB based with simple and plain observations. Who is the least mobile, who is the worst to throw down field, who is inflexible to keep defenses off balance like being under center or doing play action, who loses playoff games fairly consistently with multiple interceptions in a single qtr, who works the least in game preparation both film study and the practice field, etc etc. Based on the what my eyes see, I'd agree that maybe we do have the least desirable QB in the division. I mean we couldn't even beat Cinci when they didn't even have their rookie QB playing. We were double digit favorites and, to me, hit rock bottom as a team and organization.
     
  22. KnoxVegasSteel

    KnoxVegasSteel Well-Known Member

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    This is just more deflection and excuses.

    How do you know when someone has a weak ass argument? When they play the race card.

    You made your point, I made mine. No need to go where you are attempting to take this.
     
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  23. Steel Hog

    Steel Hog Well-Known Member

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    No one wants Tomlin gone more than I do. But I won't say the decade was all bad because in all fairness, there were some good times in there. My contention is Tomlin has run his course and its time for new ideas, leadership, direction, etc. I am convinced we will not get near a SB again with this coaching staff and possibly the ownership. That is my opinion and I'm sticking with it no matter what. Since I expect everyone else to be doing the same with their opinion on the matter, these posts will continue without anyone changing their mind about MT>
     
  24. Thor

    Thor

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    I'm not going to follow you very far down this rabbit hole because it's obvious your responding to some collection of anti-Tomlin rhetoric you've come across in the past rather than my post. I've previously stated here that I don't think Tomlin a bad coach, just not the right fit for the Steelers the past several years. It's not an uncommon occurance in sports.

    As to your question. I do acknowledge Tomlin's role in draft and development. That wasn't relevant to the point I was making. That said, discussion on his role there would have to include parsing out things like which players Tomlin inherited, how much certain picks were his vs. Colbert (or ownership), etc.

    The same could be said of those criticizing Tomlin critics; I said above it was a polarizing topic. Seeing your response to a very short post of mine that includes none of this (and to a poster I was already debating in another thread on the subject) signals that I'm not going to get much in the way of productive discourse with you. You're already sprinkling in some Anecdotal/Ad Hom static in painting Tomlin criticism as 'inconsistent, hypocritical, and all over the place.'

    Now you're onto Dichotomy Fallacy with a touch of Strawman. First, statements positing another coach may have been a better fit do not necessarily equal "won the SB." It means the different approach leads the team to perhaps three more wins. Which, for the Steelers, would likely mean a playoff appearance when they missed, maybe advancing to the championship rather than first round exit.

    Winning the SB is hard. It takes a combination of talent, performance, health, coaching, and luck. It wouldn't be any more fair than to lay that expectation upon Tomlin as a measure of his coaching prowess in a random year as it would be for you to ask it of a replacement.

    Second, yes, I can name some specific seasons I felt the team came up short. I'm not going to for you, as I feel it would to be an exercise in wasting the time of doing the legwork providing data for you so you can dismiss it with emotional arguments framed as logic.

    And this closing goes right off the rails: Ad Hom, Dichotomy/Strawman, False Andectodal. Not going to try wading in there.
     
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  25. Lloyd&Green

    Lloyd&Green Well-Known Member

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    You don’t seem capable of comprehending my argument and that’s the point in my last response. I posed a few simple questions challenging your argument that you deflected from. That’s why I didn’t even bother making a counter argument to your drivel. You have no point other than “Tomlin’s a bad coach who should be fired”.

    I don’t do passive aggressive. People who use the term “race card” are usually racist. I didn’t even mention race in my response to you and the only thing I said about race in my response to the other poster is in reference to the Real Sports story dealing with the lack of progress with the Rooney Rule that HE/SHE referenced.

    Clearly you have a problem with discussions about the racist hiring practices of coaches/execs. You’re right to run your little scary ass along tho, because I hold no punches when it comes to discussing racial politics.
    Wow, what an incredibly racist and ignorant/stupid take. The question of whether there is racial discrimination in reference to who gets hired for coaching jobs has long been settled. The NFL conceded and acknowledged that there is racial discrimination which is what led to the creation of the Rooney Rule which is 18 years old now. The fact that we still have white fans trying to deny that there’s racial discrimination helps explain why there’s little to no progress on the issue in 18 years. The majority either support or are indifferent to the racial discrimination.

    Just one question. Since you don’t believe discrimination has been proven, why do you think the NFL created the Rooney Rule in the first place? I’d advise you to some time to watch the story with an open mind and not with a chip on your shoulder.
     
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