Who here is buying Dupree?

We are all wrong on occasion, but most of us can't do it as often or as consistently as you do. Your comment implies I have been wrong on many occasions, but it certainly hasn't happened when we have been on opposing sides of a discussion. You were wrong about Switzer. You were wrong about the defense. You were wrong in claiming that statistics don't matter. I could go on, but THAT would be off topic.

This is not. Somebody brought up Bell, saying losing him didn't hurt, as justification for letting Dupree go. That simply isn't true. Conner played well in his absence for part of the 2019 season, but the offense has clearly missed Bell the last two seasons. So yet again, you find yourself on the wrong side of things.

 

And yet, you fail to even try to answer the question and back up your assertion.

 

There were two major problems with your question. One is I lost it among the other errors in your post. Also, you asked me not to answer it. Or did you forget that part?

Start by acknowledging everything else that was wrong with your post and we have a beginning.

Then go on to address the other problem with your post, which is the lack of clarity. Are you asking why Bell didn't gain more yards as a Steeler? Are you asking about 2018, when he didn't even play? Are you asking about 2019 with the Jets? Please clarify and I will then go on to once again show you the error of your ways.

 

Well if you took a minute to read and successfully comprehend @NY STEELERFAN post you would see he also listed QB hits ,TFL and tackles and yes I’ve seen him play I live in NY and the Giants are on every week and guess what? They play a 3/4. He had a few more tackles than Dupree and a few less TFL so yeah he can play the run. Statistical data? Ok let’s look at Goldens numbers. Very similar to Dupree for the year. What does 2017 injury and 2018 have to do with anything? Ok let’s go back to Duprees disappearing act for 4 years? You are basing his value on 1 breakout season and guess what Golden had a very similar season. If Dupree is trending up then so is Golden.
How does the data support your argument and Dupree but Goldens data doesn’t support mine? Oh that’s right because it does.

If anything the Steelers were a better defense than the Giants and the Giants don’t have anyone comparable to Watt. So a experienced opinion would lead one to believe that Golden would perform even better in this defense.

You are basically saying Dupree is irreplaceable. Golden is just one example of a guy that could potentially fill in. It’s my opinion and you saying he couldn’t ( or according to you anyone for that matter) is yours. No matter how much you try to make your opinion more valid it isn’t . Yes they currently have more cap room that doesn’t rule out the possibility of signing him. We have to make room for Dupree. We can make room for someone else and likely hold on to a couple of other important pieces.

It’s of my opinion and many others that tagging Dupree will be a detriment to other key areas of the team. That’s the part you seem to be missing or not acknowledging. It’s not about bringing in a specific player. We are just giving examples of some players that might fit the bill. You are acting like there’s no way anyone can come in and give us a solid season similar to Dupree. Everyone is replaceable including Dupree. In his 5 year career so far my statistics show he’s been successful 20% of the time and 80% of the time he was Bud the Dud.

You can keep trumpeting that somehow your opinion is ALWAYS more valid than everyone else’s around here but I would bet if you took a poll 99% would say they’re not.....now that’s a statistic I can hang my hat on....have a great evening....

 

I never said it is always more valid. I've had certain situations in which my opinion is more valid than others because I supported it better. So that last part of your post is one false claim among many in your supposed knockout post.

Regarding his previous mention of Golden's statistics, I simply hadn't seen what he posted. It was not in the post to which I was responding. Also, it was in a post that he started off talking about Bell, so I didn't go any further. I actually had to go back hunting through the thread to find what the heck you were talking about. But hey, I guess you can comprehend and acknowledge posts you don't see. You must be able to do that if you expect me to do the same, right? Wait, you can't? Hmmmm

Actually, Golden's best season season was 2016. He bounced back last year after two seasons battling injuries. Both guys have had injuries, but that torn ACL in 2017 for Golden is at least some concern. Dupree is the one trending up. Golden is still trying to get back to the level of his 2016 season. So you got that wrong. There is another flaw in your amazing post. NY STEELERFAN's little GIF claim isn't looking so good.

Also, I never said Dupree was irreplaceable, so that is yet another part of your post based on false premise. That is the second significant error in your supposed knockout post. These errors are piling up.

You still can't support the argument why Golden would come at a significantly lower price tag than Dupree. He has reached double digits in sacks twice. Why are you assuming the Giants, who have more cap room than the Steelers, aren't going to try to keep him?

Also, how do you know Golden can make the switch to a 3-4 outside linebacker the way the Steelers employ them? We've seen what Dupree can do in the Pittsburgh defense. Golden is a projection. That is one of many reasons teams are often better off keeping their own free agents rather than signing guys from other teams.

I asked for specific players because it is easy to say the Steelers should move on from Dupree without saying who they should get, which requires demonstrating that the player can fill the role and that the Steelers can actually get him.

Lastly, you are ignoring the largest point. I'm not saying the Steelers should sign Dupree long term. I'm saying they should use the franchise tag, then have that money free next offseason when they are looking to lock up Watt and possibly Fitzpatrick. They don't have to bid against teams. They can just lock Dupree in at a set rate instead of going into an unpredictable free agent market and compete for players when almost every other team in the league has more cap space. My concern is the Steelers let Dupree go thinking they can sign one of the free agents out there, then they are outbid on all of the ones capable of playing at a similar level. Also, it would take a multi-year deal to get somebody like Golden, which means more money is tied up beyond 2020, which makes it tougher to lock up Watt and Fitzpatrick.

None of this is a matter of absolutes. It is all a matter of what is more likely. You really think the Steelers are likely to find what they need in free agency when most of the league has more cap space than they do?

Actually, given all the errors in your supposed knockout post, I'm not really sure I have much faith in your answer to that question, but I wish you a nice evening as well.

 

I never said he was a special player who can't be replaced. I just see the advantage of a one-year franchise tag that they can definitely get instead of a multi-year deal for a free agent, which is based on the hope of competing for one even though they have less money available than most of the league.

Nobody is irreplaceable, so please stop using that straw man, but stop with this claim that losing Bell didn't hurt the offense. Clearly, that isn't true.

We have no idea what Bell would have produced if he had actually played in 2018. Your claim about Conner that season ignores that he missed four games and the lack of a running game in one of them was a huge part of losing to one of the worst teams in the league. That was the day the Raiders beat them in Oakland. We did see a decline in Bell in 2019, after taking a full season off and going to a team with a weaker offensive line.

I'm not saying Conner was a bad replacement in 2018. He was good, but just not as good as Bell.

I will say that if the Steelers do move on from Dupree and their replacement comes through on a level similar to what Conner did in place of Bell in 2018, I would happily take that. Unfortunately, this time the Steelers don't have a replacement on the roster and signing a free agent is going to be tough with their cap situation.

 

I believe the Steelers would had made the post season in 2018 and possibly 2019 if Bell were on the team.

Someone will play the position if they can't work out a deal with Dupree. I don't think the Steelers will "luck" into a less expensive option and at the same time get the same production as Dupree. Not having Dupree return could have a negative impact on the defense.

 

You have your opinion,I have mine. You have your assumptions,I have mine. No matter how valid you think yours are, they’re no more valid than mine. Did Golden have a better year in 2019 than 2018? Yes. Did Dupree?Yes. So there’s the flaw in your argument. Those stats show a trend of improvement from one year to the next, for both. Unfortunately you don’t want to admit that. Shouldn’t we be just as concerned about Duprees injury history if we are worried about a ACL 3 years ago? I’m well aware of yours stance that it’s a tag you are pushing. Are you aware that signing Dupree is very likely at the expense of other players? That’s part of the discussion, not just finding a replacement. Do you think keeping Dupree at the expense of possibly Hilton,Finney and Feiler is the smart move? You don’t get a do over once they’re gone.

Do I know Golden can make the switch to 3-4 like we employ our OLBs? Well considering Dupree statistically rushed the passer on 92.2 of his snaps, I’m not sure there’s such a science to that. Considering Golden put up almost the exact same numbers on few less snaps ,a experienced opinion would favor they we’re used very similarly. Again Golden did it with inferior talent around him and has proven he’s done it before. Dupree hasn’t.You don’t think he will be stepping into a much better situation? Lastly I can’t support why he would come at a significantly lower price tag because we don’t know and neither do you. Giants have a new coaching staff. How do we know he fits in their plans? We don’t. It’s not as black and white as you think it is. There are valid concerns on both sides. If you think signing Dupree at the expense of others and there will be casualties of his 17mil. is a no brainer,fine it’s your opinion. Mine is there are few other pieces I’d prefer to keep rather than lose by signing Dupree to a 1 yr deal. If there was no repercussions of signing Dupree I wouldn’t care but surely there will be because we are strapped....

 

https://steelerswire.usatoday.com/2020/01/11/pff-bud-dupree-javon-hargrave-free-agents/
https://stillcurtain.com/2020/01/25/steelers-re-signing-bud-dupree-risky/

 

Hahaha, yeah...no. I'm not playing your ring-around-the-rosie game, Mr. Mouth. You made an outlandish claim. I called you on it. You came back like you always do, smoke screening. That's what you do. That's ALL you do.

You use statistics to make yourself feel and sound legit. But the moment you deviate from statistics, you sound like a damned fool. Your only recourse is to keep track of past arguments so you can count supposed losses.

Here's how it goes:

FS: bla bla bla stat.
GD: Your stats are an incomplete picture.
FS: Stats prove everything, straw man.
GD: In my experience, they don't. Here's why. Here's a situation that your stats don't accurately represent.
FS: You have been wrong in the past, so you are wrong now. Your straw man post has errors, so you are wrong. You dared to sully the good name of statistics, so you are wrong. You don't use straw man in every post, so you are wrong. I use straw man better so my opinions are factual.

 

No, what I do is beat you in these discussions. I do it every single time. I do it with experience, knowledge, rhetorical skill and statistical data. You clearly have none of those things, so you just attack me and insist you were right no matter how thoroughly you were proven wrong. It's what you did when you defended Switzer. It's what you did when you criticized the defense. It's what you do in your ongoing attempts to discredit the use of statistics as part of an argument.

To just point out one flaw in your fake exchange, I've never claimed that statistics prove everything. I'm saying they strengthen an argument. That is an important distinction.

There was no outlandish claim. The Steelers' running game has been worse without Bell. Losing him cost them on the field. They had one of the worst running games in the league in 2018, in part because they didn't run it as often and in part because they didn't run it as well. Conner was a decent replacement when he played, but he missed four games.

Running back was among many of the issues on offense this past season, when Conner proved he lacks the durability for the job.

You still haven't clarified your question. That's not a smokescreen. Your question can be read many different ways. You asked why Bell didn't run for more yards. He didn't run for more yards in 2018 because he didn't play. He didn't run for more yards in 2019 because he foolishly sat out an entire season and joined a team with a weaker offensive line.

Here is the thing. I'm not saying they should have kept Bell. I had no problem with them letting him move on. But the claim made on this thread was that losing Dupree won't hurt just like losing Bell didn't hurt and the latter simply isn't true. The evidence of that is in 2017 Bell, not 2019. I'm sorry you couldn't keep up with that, but I'm not surprised.

You really don't back up your anti-statistical claims and you ignore the evidence when I present it.

Let's take the 2019 defense as an example. It is relevant because their overall statistics demonstrate why keeping the unit together is a good idea and that includes Dupree. You criticized them, claiming that often statistics are misleading. What you failed to do was demonstrate how the Steelers' defensive performance in 2019 was misleading. If anything, they were better than their statistics, which place them among the top five or six defenses in the league. The offense was among the worst in the league in time of possession, making the defense's job much harder. Turnovers were also an issue on offense, leading to more points scored in spite of the defense's efforts. The overall statistics also don't quite do the defense justice because they include two games before they acquired All-Pro safety Minkah Fitzpatrick. There was more to this, but I've posted it before. I'll happily refresh your memory further if you need it.

 

I guess it was silly of me to expect you to acknowledge the errors in your previous post.

You are looking at a two-year trend. I am taking entire careers into account. There is no flaw in my argument despite your false claim to the contrary. You are arbitrarily choosing a different point to start your analysis, one that isn't as comprehensive as mine. I actually said Golden improved in 2019 from the two previous seasons, so you are wrong about that, too. What I said was that he still hasn't regained his highest level while Dupree reached his highest level in 2019.

Dupree has demonstrated the ability to cover effectively and rush the passer over the course of his career, so yes, there is science to that.

Losing Dupree without signing a competent replacement would absolutely bring repercussions. Being able to keep Dupree is a sure thing if the Steelers tag him. Targeting somebody like Golden in free agency is not. In fact, it is likely the Steelers' primary free agent options will end up elsewhere due to the team's limited cap space. If you like Golden so much, why do you think he would accept so much less than Dupree will get? That doesn't make sense.

 

The problem with comparing pressure rates is it doesn't take into account how much more Dupree played in comparison to Hargrave.

 

Golden wouldn't be a cheap signing either, possibly less than Dupree, but not a bargain basement player.

 

Hey BURGH43STEL.

I am lukewarm to keeping Dupree or letting him walk. Probably leaning more towards keeping him. Simply because I think we have a good thing going on right now with our transformed "D". I do not want to see any disruptions to the 11 men that comprise that unit; with the exception of Edmunds, who has shown minimal growth up to this point. Given that, I really think that Bud, and the "D" as a whole, stepped it up this year because of the additions of:

• Nelson, whose acquisition had a cause and effect outcome to make Haden an even better player.
• Minka, enough said right there.
• Barron, who is better than Vince Williams.
  
  
• And also. Moving Bud to a different side across from TJ.

Bud played good this year. Not great IMO. However, lets not tinker with a good thing too much. If we lose Hargrave, I am actually okay with that. I have stated many times here on the Board that I want a Casey Hampton Prototype NT. Hargrave is just another DE playing NT. Do not get me wrong. He is an excellent player but unlike a "True" NT, like Hampton, Hargrave does not command multiple lineman to handle him. Plus our running "D" would be much better with a Casey type NT in there. And no, Big Dan is not the answer. If Poe is still out there, I say go after him. I wanted him in the draft for the reasons I just outlined above.


STEELWINDS AKA The East Side Kid

 

It's too much of a jump in pay in two seasons for one good season of play. I don't think he will nearly double his output from last year while we nearly double his pay. That's foolish and is what gets us into these cap messes.

 

Do you even read....The comparison is not only based on Dupree vs Hargrave. Dupree was ranked 70th in pressure rates at 10.1% among edge rushers. Try to spin your way out of that one.

 

Why does everyone who counters the argument miss the point. It’s not about Golden or any specific player. It’s a idea and opinion that we may be able to replace someone who had 1 good year on his resume and a pressure ranking that made him 70th in the league with another cheaper alternative which would allow us to sign a few of our other key components. Let me ask you ...would you rather have Dupree ar 17 mil. for 1 year or Feiler, Finney and Hilton for 3 years because that is the possible repercussions of signing Dupree. This is what I’ve been reading. I already stated that if there were no other key casualties to his signing I wouldn’t care. Let’s see a starting OL, our best nickel DB,and our back up center and swing guard for a 1 year rental. That’s the point...

 

What’s silly is to point at Goldens highest level as his bar. The point is he had a almost exact statistical season as Dupree. What does it matter what he did 3-4 years ago? You know around the same time everyone was labeling Dupree a bust. You are pointing to Duprees 2019 as some break out year and a sign of things to come. Guess what Golden had the same year playing with much lesser talent. So his second highest level is Duprees highest level and it came the same year ,so what’s your point? Trying to use someone’s best year as a negative?

Cover and rush the passer effectively? He was being called a bum and his play warranted the label. Like I said 92.2% of the time he rushed the passer. He dropped 48 times in over 950 snaps. We lead the league the previous 2 years in sacks without much coming from him. With our improved secondary we have gone away fro having to use smoke and mirrors to get sacks. We instead have Watt and Dupree dropping significantly less. This is what has accounted for Duprees jump in production and guess what? It still ranks him 70th in the league. So his coverage ability is overblown and overrated because he’s only asked to do it 8% of the time. So no not exactly a science to it.

Again it’s not Golden,Golden or Golden as our options. @NY STEELERFAN brought up about 10 names. I guess none of them would be a option either. There are only so many 3-4 teams in the league. There will be players available. Did you see Shaq Barrett coming last season? The FO will have to identify the right guy. That’s their job. I didn’t say they should sign a incompetent guy. Did you see Steven Nelson coming last year? I’m sure there are higher caliber guys they would like to target every year but they know their restrictions. So they go out and sign a guy like Nelson,a second tier guy that guess what played like a 1st tier guy. That’s the idea finding that guy. Sometimes you do, sometimes it doesn’t work out. Who’s to say it can’t or won’t this time? Just you who is making it seem impossible.

Everyone likes to say how even the talent is in the league and now there’s no way we can find a adequate and cheaper option than Dupree? He isn’t the type of talent where opposing teams have to game plan around him. There’s just as good a chance he reverts back to the player he was 80% of the time here, than the 20% we saw this year. So far he’s a 1 year wonder that you want to give 17 mil to at the expense of other key guys just because you think he’s a lock to put up the same numbers and there is no one else who can fill his shoes. NE has the biggest turnover in roster every year at multiple positions and they seem to do just fine. Are you ok with potentially losing Hilton, Finney and Feiler to keep Dupree? Oh but I’m sure those guys are easily replaceable...

 

Is Dupree looking for a big contract? Would he resign with the Steelers for $10 mil or less/year with a multi-year contract? Yes he could get more but is that his endgame? Does he want to be a Steeler? I think he does. Has he realized that not being in our sack happy system will expose him for the AVERAGE-BELOW AVERAGE starter that he is?

 

First and foremost nobody is saying there isn't an advantage to having Bud tagged, as a matter of fact many are saying they would want Bud tagged over signed long term. Where US(many here) and YOU(the only one against this) are different we see the advantage to the TEAM by getting a good FA at a lower price than Bud AND helping other teams. Stop with the money thing because in you opinion you want to tag Bud so that is 17 mil. Use that same money in what we are saying, if you have the money to tag Bud you have the same money to use in FA.

As for teams with more cap space yes that helps but that is not the only reason players sign. You see it a lot players take less money to play with winning teams. Let me ask you if you had a chance to make say 35 mil for a SB caliber team or 45 mil with a dumpster fire what would you choose? Remember these contract are not 100% guaranteed and you can be sent packing just about anytime. Another thing is moves have not been made yet I fully expect them to make cuts and restructures. Our cap space will increase it does every year, we will not be top dollar guys but we will have enough to land the players we need in the mid range.

Last you point out how we don't know what Bell would have produced just like now. We have no idea if Bud can repete last season since he only had 1 out of 5 good years. We also have no idea if a FA can come in here and have the same numbers as Bud. These are all opinions and while I respect what you are saying neither one is better than the others........

 

good stuff right here but I am sure some will just pass right on by and not see the stats from this. Smh

 

Or play the what if? game but only in their favor

 

Fun fact: Conner averaged more YPC in his last 2 years than Bell in his last 2 years.