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Juju

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by steel_d_curtain, Dec 22, 2019.

  1. blake duerden

    blake duerden Well-Known Member

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    hopefully ben and a good vet qb come thru. everything will flourish somewhat, especially with this D.
     
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  2. FootballAnalyst98

    FootballAnalyst98 Well-Known Member

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    They had a good connection but AB could produce wherever. Just watch when ever hes able to play again. And I just gave you several receivers that had sub par qb play and still balled out. I can give you a lot more over history that have. If you a great wr you will ballout REGARDLESS. 1000 yards is a great season for a wr lol so what are you saying? You act like anybody can do that lol. And 1000 yards is what juju COULDN'T EVEN GET.
     
  3. blackandgoldpatrol

    blackandgoldpatrol Well-Known Member

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    all qb's have wr's that they're more comfortable with than others...... Ben always wanted a big receiver and took advantage of juju's presence...... mason had a better raport with deonte..... duck connected with washington.... same can be said with other teams as well... ryan fitzpatrick connected with devante parker and he finally broke out ... tannehil had aj brown, who couldn't seem to get marcus mariota's attention to save his life...... joe flako found his guy with courtland sutton and so on
     
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  4. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    They didn't ball out, unless you think not cracking 100 yards very often is balling out. And your sub QB play you are listing are better than what was playing QB for this team this year. You know damn well if AB was here and struggling you'd be trashing Hodges and Rudolph.

    1,000 is nothing special over 16 games, that's 62 yards per game.

    If JuJu played a full season he would have finished with 736 yards approximately. Thats not too far off your 1,000 yard threshold playing with 2 QB's that you could probably have played better than.
     
  5. Daddymac10

    Daddymac10 Well-Known Member

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    When JuJu was healthy & on the field, to me he is best known for fumbling in the most clutch situations. His clutch fumble ended our season in New Orleans last year, his clutch fumble against the Ravens contributed keeping us outta the playoffs this year ...at least he's consistent
     
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  6. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    Actually, yes, 736 yards is far off from 1,000. Great receivers can be great with lousy quarterbacks. Just stay in Steelers history. John Stallworth had the most productive season of his career with Mark Malone and David Woodley throwing him the ball. They weren't as bad as Rudolph and Hodges, but they sure as hell weren't good.

    You'll have to pardon me for pointing out that you have been making excuses for him since before the season started because you don't like the truth of Brown's departure hurting the offense. Smith-Schuster had the chance to be a No. 1 this season and he failed. I hoped he could develop into a player like Hines Ward, but right now, he has a very long way to go.
     
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  7. thesteeldeal

    thesteeldeal Well-Known Member

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    My .02 cents....Who a WRs QB is, is definitely a factor. How to quantify how much is hard to say. I do remember having a debate about what ABs numbers would look like going from Ben to Carr. Ben is a superior QB but i was told that if a WR is so great it shouldn’t matter who the QB is. I claimed a new team, system and QB would probably mean a drop in production but that claim was dismissed. JUJU had the same team and system but not the QB ,so now I’m not sure what to think.
     
  8. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    264 yards isn't a lot, especially when you factor in the other circumstances I mentioned.

    What you call making excuses, I call facts.

    You keep trying to make this about AB when in reality that argument was based on Ben still playing QB. I know you want to claim victory right now but you're just going to have to wait until we are comparing apples to apples.

    You also keep referencing Stallworth who was a HOF WR, please find my the post that says JuJu will be a HOF WR? You don't need to be a HOF WR to produce like a number 1 though.

    You guys are also seriously downplaying how bad the QB play was this year.

    JuJu's first two seasons were great, Im sure he benefitted from having AB across from him but show me the receivers across from Hopkins, Jones, Beckham that had 1400 yards?

    He had terrible QB play and was battling injuries, can throw in a bad OC too. Trying to judge JuJu based off of that is just fans wanting to say, "See! I was right!"
     
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  9. FootballAnalyst98

    FootballAnalyst98 Well-Known Member

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    If you thought he was an adequate replacement for ab than yes he is being judged as a hall of Famer. AB is a hall of fame receiver.
     
  10. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Thats not remotely true. Every #1 receiver is not a HOF.

    For the record, I think JuJu has the ability to be a top receiver in the league, he's only 23 and just finished his 3rd season, which was marred by injuries, bad QB play and a bad OC. He'll bounce back.
     
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  11. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    JuJu should come to camp motivated, after the awful season he had and all the criticism he took. I expect him to have a bounce back season in 2020, with Ben at QB and JuJu going into the final year of his contract.
     
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  12. FootballAnalyst98

    FootballAnalyst98 Well-Known Member

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    I didnt say every number 1 I said if you thought he was a replacement for AB. replacing ab isnt just being an average nfl #1 receiver. I do not think he's an elite #1. Hes a very good #2.
     
  13. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    You have been given many examples of receivers producing with bad quarterbacks. You continue to ignore the evidence because it doesn't fit your argument.

    I wasn't comparing Smith-Schuster to Stallworth. I was comparing Stallworth to Stallworth. He had the most productive season of his career in 1984, when the Steelers had terrible quarterback play from Mark Malone and David Woodley. They weren't as bad as Rudolph and Hodges, but they were bad. Even in a struggling offense with bad quarterbacks, Stallworth put up the best numbers of his career.

    Let's move past the silly argument that 264 yards isn't a significant portion of 1,000. That wasn't the totality of Smith-Schuster's decline this season. He dropped from 111 receptions to 42. Is that significant? He dropped from 1,426 yards to 552. Is that significant?
     
  14. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Right because every situation is the same.

    Talk about silly. You are comparing them. You're arguing because a HOF WR was able to then JuJu should too. You also keep trying to compare QB's that weren't nearly as bad as how Hodges and Rudolph played. Now who's trying to make an argument fit.

    Yeah, it's so far away from 1,000 :rolleyes:

    Not only have you been downplaying the level of bad QB play, you're conveniently leaving out the game plans. How many games did we witness check down madness? How many behind the line of scrimmage passes and 5 yard passes? JuJu was hardly even a part of many of the game plans we witnessed.

    You guys should hang out with Mark Madden, he has a whole bunch of unjust criticisms of JuJu too.
     
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  15. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    You are the one who was claiming that it wasn't far from 1,000. It was. You are also giving him credit for what yards he could have gotten if he had played 16 games, not what he actually did get was 552. What you are trying to give him a break on injuries twice. You tried using the projected number, then said that wasn't so bad when you consider the other factors holding back his play, which include injuries. You counted it twice.

    I compared Stallworth with the Hall of Fame quarterback to Stallworth with two scrubs, Malone and Woodley. Even when the quality of quarterback play went in the toilet, he managed to produce as well as he ever had in his career. One thing he had working for him was Louis Lipps emerging as a threat at the other spot. He was a rookie, but he was a first-round pick who established himself quickly and gave defenses a hell of a lot more to fear than any receiver the Steelers have now.

    The game plans were part of the lousy quarterback play. Yet again, you are trying to count one thing twice. It wasn't all conservative game plans. It was Rudolph taking safe throws and receivers failing to get open down the field. Smith-Schuster's targets did go down this year, but so did the percentage of those targets he caught. He dropped more passes even though he had fewer come his way. That is one of the many ways his quality of play declined this season.

    We aren't talking about a small drop-off here. I notice you avoided answering those questions, so I'll try it once more. Smith-Schuster dropped from 111 receptions to 42. Is that significant? He dropped from 1,426 yards to 552. Is that significant?
     
  16. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Just addressing this because I disagree with the rest and we're just going in circles. My pointing out the terrible game plans that didn't have the ball going further than 5 yards was my reasoning for the drop off in those areas. Not to mention missing 5 games and atrocious QB play.

    Doesn't really matter if you thing juJu sucks eggs, all that matters is he balls out next year with Ben back under center. Rest of this stuff is just noise.
     
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  17. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    The fair response would be two answer my two questions. The massive drop in his statistics are not just noise. I'm assuming that is why you avoided answering.

    I hope he plays great, too. I hoped the same this year. I knew enough to see the drop coming before Roethlisberger got hurt. I just never imagined it would be this bad, and of course, the loss of Roethlisberger added to that significantly.
     
  18. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Um, I did answer it, I acknowledge there was a drop off and gave you reasons why.

    It is noise, all of this silly debate. All that matters is he plays well next year with a real QB.
     
  19. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    I asked if those drop-offs qualified as significant. You didn't really answer that.

    There is nothing wrong with the debate. His failures were a huge part of the team missing the playoffs this year. That includes the fumble against the Ravens and the drop against the Jets, but also his lack of production all season.

    Your last statement includes two huge assumptions. One is that he will have a real quarterback and the other is that he will play well. I think the latter is a safer bet, but neither is a sure thing.
     
  20. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    All of his production was a significant drop. I honestly was never trying to refute or avoid that, just offering a defense of why.
     
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  21. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    @FootballAnalyst98 dont follow me around trolling me with the rating system. There is nothing above to be disagreeing with unless you think there wasn't a significant drop in his production.

    Otherwise grow up.
     
  22. BURGH43STEL

    BURGH43STEL Well-Known Member

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    Juju already proved that he can run, catch, and produce at a high level in the league. Injuries and QB play hurt his production this year. Not sure why it matters to some people if he is a number 1,2, or whatever. For me it's about getting adequate QB play and how well the WRs develop as a group.
     
  23. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    I agree but their argument is he can't do it while receiving the attention that comes along with being the #1.

    I think it's a waste of time trying to make a judgment of him based on the QB play this season.

    Hopefully Ben is back and we'll find out next year.
     
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  24. Formerscribe

    Formerscribe Well-Known Member

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    That is a convenient take given that you were on the side of the debate arguing that Smith-Schuster wouldn't be diminished by the departure of Brown. You started trying to soften the ground even before the season started, saying that some decline wouldn't necessarily be his fault.

    Smith-Schuster failed miserably this season. Maybe he bounces back and does great things. I certainly hope so, but he was extremely disappointing and one of the reasons was the lack of a dominant threat at the other receiver spot.
     
  25. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Yes, it’s logical to assume that there could be a drop off from 1400 yards regardless if AB stayed or not. I also believe I stated that his production could very well drop due to ABs departure but not to levels they did this season.

    You want to dismiss the circumstances that led to it and make it all about Brown, whatever floats your boat. I really don’t care.
     

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