big bens shoulder

Right and if you can play you do play ... it is not your job to determine who effective you would be compared to your backup ... that is what coaches are for ... As a player your job is to play

 

Come on Mac ... there are plenty of valid areas in Ben’s game to criticize, this just simple is not one of them.

 

I hope his Shoulder heals.Ben is one tough cookie for sure.

 

I actually disagree with this as far as the QB position is concerned.......IMO the QB is the leader of your Team and he sets the standard of what is best for the Team overall,,,,,with that said for him to play knowing he is not mobile enough to do what he does best is the wrong choice for him to make...

Coach T stated he knows Ben is a competitor and he won;t pull him if he feels he can compete....IMO that's the Coach putting the ball in Ben's court....Simply do you feel like you can play at a high enough level to help us win???If Ben really evaluated his game and looked at what was best for the Team I think he would say Coach you know I want to play ,but I am not sure it is for the best.....I trust our other QB'S and our running game and I believe they can get the job done while I get ready for the post season.....0If it seems they can't do it or you 0come say you need me I will go out there and do everything I possibly can to help.....

IMO that's the way a leader is suppose to act.............

 

The problem with this idea is that there are numerous examples from around the league that don’t seem to support the idea that QB's are exempt from the idea of “if you are cleared you play” dynamic. Off the top of my head, I clearly remember the below examples of QB's playing at far less than 100% and the common thread is that they were all universally praised (by both teammate, coached and media) for their toughness and leadership in playing hurt.
-Steve Mc Nair played with broken ribs, bruised sternum... etc,
- Elway played an entire season with a torn bicep muscle of his throwing arm
- Bradshaw and Favre played with broken wrists/arms (non-throwing) at time in their career
This is by no means a comprehensive list, just comes to mind right away. So it could be argued that to lead men in the NFL a QB MUST be willing to player hurt, in order to have the respect of their teammates. After all, if your teammates don’t respect you it will be almost impossible to lead them.

In addition there is another problem with this idea that players\QBs should sit themselves, objectivity. How do you expect a professional play to know his relative effectiveness compared to his backups ability? The very nature of a player (and even more so a QB) is to always feel that he even if he is hurt he is absolute best option. Plus, there are too many variables to determine: extent of player injury, vs. plays skill against skill level of backup. I mean do you think every QB has a rubric that says … I am X% better then my backup and let’s see this injury downgrades my effectiveness by X%... hmmm ok I will sit this one out? Of course not! :o Again this idea of a play/QB voluntarily sit them self MAY sound good in theory, but when viewed realistically it is just not reasonable or possible. This is why it is left to coaches and the team medical staff to make these decisions.

 

The Team also will also not respect a QB who continues to play hurt and hurts the Team by doing so.......As far as being cleared by the staff they only care if playing could make a injury worse ,,,so a lot of times they will clear a guy who really isn't capable of doing his job......

I have dealt with this type of thing and yes players play hurt all the time ,but they also tell the Coaches if they can't execute the plays because they are hurt....Also these guys are Pro's and they know if they will be better by game time or not......I still stand by the fact it was selfish for Ben to play when he knew he would not be ready and he knew the Coaches would not sit him.....

A big part of this equation was BA,,,had he held regular practices and evaluated the QB position properly he would have known that Ben was not ready and would hurt the Team if he tried to play hurt....

So as a Coach myself I really blame them both.....Neither of them made the right decisions as to what was best for the Team.....Both where selfish as Ben wanted to play no matter what ,he was sp arrogant that he thought I am better than any option we have even though I can't walk,even though I can't push off that foot,and even though I can't avoid the rush....Who cares the Doctor cleared him he knew the state he was in...

As far as BA goes he should have watched him limp into the stadium and knew he can't go today ,yet he to was arrogant and over looked the obvious because he knew that Ben was the QB who would throw it all over the yard the way BA wanted,,,again disregarding what was best for the Team....

I think our new OC will have a Offensive attack he wants to run that will require the QB to get under the Center and if the QB can't take snaps the last practice before the game then that QB won't be playing......I can see Ben throwing a fit when this happens ,but Ben has proved he won't do what's best for the Team so now the Coach will have to make the decision....As stated a true leader knows if they can perform their Job skills at a high enough level or not.....Ben knew he just didn't care....

 

I Love the game as much as any and I remember setting myself in HS sort of.....As Defensive Captain my #1 Goal was to shut the other Team down and do our best to win the FB game.....

I played Monster man and had free range that year could call any blitz or any coverage I wanted ,,my Coach had a lot of faith in me....Anyway I tweaked a knee a couple of days before the game ,I had seen on film that they liked to throw to a shifty RB and a speedy type TE ,I knew if we played zone those guys would eat us up and I also knew if I got matched up 1 on 1 with one of them in the state I was it would be trouble.....

So I shared my concerns with the Coach and the Team and both really wanted me on the field ,but agreed with my concerns.....Coach Hale asked me if I could stuff the run and contain the QB this would allow me to still help call the D ,,, I said hell yes so I moved to a DE for that game and my cousin played my monster back and did a great job...It was a tight game and we won...I have no doubt had I played my normal spot then we would have lost the game..

As a leader of the Offense I expect a QB to do the same thing....To me it is real simple am I a Team player or am I a Me player,what the DOC says has nothing to do with that IMO...

 

@ tesel10
I also don't think it's out of the realm of good reason to make a judgement call of a back up QB's ability that you have been playing side by side with for 8 years to be able to evaluate if he is in a better physical position to help the team win. I mean, you don't have to be a trainer to do that. Let's be real here, this is serious business for sure, but they aren't saving lives out there, so what's on the line isn't as crucial as this debate is making it seem.

I applaud Ben for his years of toughness playing hurt in games as he has done so well, so many times in the past. The guy is a rock. But, with that experience he should have known what was better to do and so should the staff. We are talking hindsight here, so I'm not sure what is to discuss. Batch should have started that game. We couldn't have done worse and Ben would have rested for that extra week.

It's not like Batch hasn't started and won games in the past. I understand a player has a winning mind and iron heart and all that Jazz. Really, I do. But, this one we should have sat him. I know everything that was on the line. I was 50/50 on it at game time. But, that was without the benefit of being in the practice sessions all week. I was iffy with no info.

I'd like to say Ben wouldn't do the same again and he's learned his lesson and parameters, but we are talking about Ben Roethlisberger here...

 

name me 3 backups in this league good enough you would play them at 100% over Ben at 50% I'd take Ben at 50% over some of the other starters

 

name me 3 backups in this league good enough you would play them at 100% over Ben at 50% I'd take Ben at 50% over some of the other starters[/quote:2cg5qjn6]

Charlie Batch,Dennis Dixon, and Ward for starters.....All of which could have got under Center and handed the ball off......All of them had a greter potential to escape the rush better than Ben....

As to the post above I agree this is not HS and the choice made by a player getting paid should be a better one than a guy playing just for the Love of the game......Again IMO as the leader of the unit he needs to know when he is helping or hurting the Team his choices effect the whole Teams money and their futures so I stand by the belief he made a bad decision .....

He could have easily talked to BA and Coach T in private and stated'hey guys I can't even walk,no way can I get out from under Center,hey guys when I put weight on that Foot I can barely stand the pain' IMO this was another great chance for BEN to be a true leader of the Team and put his Ego 2nd. and his Team 1st.......

Maybe Coach T knew he screwed up as well thus he went and got a guy who would not be attached to Ben and will keep the Teams interest above Ben's......Similar to the situation we have right now,as Ben is acting up while his young WR'S are interacting with there new OC....

I have a theory that a lot in the locker room think that Ben is selfish and puts his needs above the Team.....Things that support that is him changing to pass plays in short yardage and changing to pass plays when we are in FG wange in close games......His statements about how he feels when he sheds tackles and makes big plays......How about some changing a pass play to a run and encouragng the running game?How about a run or quick strike play when in scoring range?How about some statements about him loving to watch Red pound people?A last none of this happens from what I can see and the only reason I can come up with is BEN'S Me attitude.......If I am wrong I hope he proves it to me ,but as of right now this is how I see it.....

 

@ oldschool

Well I am really beating this one to death I am not arguing on whether Tomlin should have sat Ben or not. That is a completely different discussion. I am strictly addressing the idea of if it reasonable to expected a NFL QB to bench himself, when he has been cleared to play. Obviously my position is that it is not a reasonable expectation.

@ PWP


I understand what you are saying and maybe in a an ideal NFL you would be right. But you just can not compare High School to the NFL. The expectation at the NFL are much higher. At each level you move up (Peewee, HS, College, to Pro) the expectations of what you can play with injury wise is raised. By the time by the time you are at the NFL level, you play period.
Your example also doesn’t fit because your positions differ. You were playing a position that speed and movement were prime consideration. As a QB it is a secondary consideration. Yes mobility help a QB, particularly with our o-line and Ben’s style of play. But the most import skill in a QB’s toolbox is throw the ball and even with a bad ankle Ben could still throw the ball.

Here are a few examples of injuries QB's played with in just the last couple years.
Romo - 2 broken ribs and a punched lung
Rivers - 2 torn knee ligaments in knee (MCL & Ac
Vick - Broken Ankle and bad thumb on throwing hand
Tebow- Rib, Chest and lung injury

Here are a few articles that I think make it clear that players, including QB's, are expected to play hurt

http://articles.philly.com/2011-09-29/sports/30217249_1_michael-vick-sports-hernia-concussion
http://www.denverpost.com/broncos/ci_10422768
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=ms-silver_friday_offerings_romo_cutler_injuries_092311

 

I hope i got a color change,but the part about Ben's mobility being a secondary concern is exactly my point....He has really never showed me he is a pocket QB nor a QB who can just stand there and throw darts.......So I think my comparison is very close as one of my biggest skills where missing and so where his and his lack of mobility effected the whole playbook and every player around him in a negative way the same as mine did.....Again the only difference was I put the Team 1st and Ben put himself 1st and the Coaches allowed him to do so......Make no mistake I would have Benched him without a doubt,I think Haley will be the same way....

 

@PWP

Like I said to oldschool, whether the Steelers coaching staff should have benched Ben is a completely different discussion. Still debatable , but a different argument.

As for Ben benching himself, in my mind there is no argument. It is an unreasonable expectation. First, I am not sure it is the right decision. Batch is not that mobile either and definitely is not anywhere close to QB that Ben is. So, would I take a 50% Ben over a 100% Batch? Yes, or at least a maybe. Now if I have some reservations, how in the world would I expect Ben to so clearly reach the conclusion that it was in the team's best interest for Batch to play, that he would go against one of the prime ethos of the NFL ( You are cleared .. you play) and bench himself? Again there is no way Ben (or any other player) can be objective about this.

 

Well Rogers was cleared to play and him and his staff decided it was best for him to sit....I am sure I can find many more QB'S who have sit in similar situations to the one Ben was in....Also the Team has a lot to do with the choice ...As the Teams you listed above none of which have a great D nor a Great running game at the time...I believe the RB'S for Dallas where hurt at the time.....Also all of them where fighting to keep there post season chances alive....

My Cousin played Pro Ball and he says a lot of times the Doctors and the Coaches want you to play which is exactly what you said above....He also says that it is up to the player to convince the Medical staff or the Coach he can't go,,, if he knows he can't help the Team or be effective......

Bottom line is Ben put his needs before the Teams he talks that kind of talk he walks that kind of walk.....

I guess we will just agree to disagree ,,and all I can say is I am glad Haley is here to curve Bens selfish behaior...

 

Yep, I definitely think agree to disagree is the only option ...