Who's the boss?

Please stop comparing Rooney to Jerry Jones. Jones sticks his nose into every tiny detail of his team. He probably tells his players when they may use the toilet and how many times to chew their food before they swallow. Rooney involved himself in the decision of who will be second in command on the sideline and control the offense. He certainly has the right to be involved in decisions of this level. Also, why wouldn't he have the final say? He is the owner, is he not?

 

where did you say you "hated" tomlin? semantics. i didn't put it in quotes when i said it so read it figuratively, not literally.

you "actually like the guy"?!?! tomlin? MIKE tomlin? we talking about the same guy? because the guy you referenced is so inept that his entire body of work was merely riding the coattails of another guy's hard work. you demanded that we "not make any mistake in that." nope, don't even try to debate any of this because, you suggested, "you're not going to win that argument." you suggest he lacks coaching, leadership, management, and disciplinarian skills, he has "no" decision-making abilities, he has no "clear vision", he has performed so poorly at his job that he "forced" ownership to act out and undermine their head coach which they have NEVER had to do in, as you pointed out, four decades (which "gave him a black eye in the process"), and he's such a buffoon that you don't understand how he can even get out of his own way (actually, you said "he has done just enough to not screw up" -- i've gotta make sure i quote here. don't want to miss the point again by choosing a word that doesn't even closely resemble your intentions) . . .

yeah . . . you like the guy, huh? how can i register for your chapter of the mike tomlin fan club? where do i send the check? to 123 Bulls**t Street? and you have the audacity to accuse my post of possessing "hot air?" ha!

pray tell. what do you, ahem, "like" about the guy? (other than ripping him to shreds?)

 

why wouldnt Jerry Jones have the final say? he is there owner is he not? justsaying cant have it both ways

 

But back to the first argument: you didn't address it. Nothing anyone can say will remove the fact that for the first time in over 40 years, a Rooney publicly overruled his head coach on a personnel decision. You think this says something about Art? I say no. He's been around this team for a long time. Instead, it says something about Mike Tomlin. And that has me worried.[/quote]because art has "been around this team for a long time," it doesn't mean he's been in the leadership position he's currently in. i HAVE addressed this. multiple times. in multiple threads.

i'll say it again: we are JUST NOW christening the Art Rooney II era. this time has JUST arrived. of course he has had a 'role' in this organization. from '33-'88, it was the chief's show to run. since then, it was dan's. over the past few years, since dan took on the ambassador role in ireland, there his been a transition where Art II has become THE guy. his role in the past has been 'upper management.' but it hasn't been as the 'leader/face' of this franchise. now it is.

don't you think it's a little different being joe biden than it is being obama? does anyone care what biden has to say? they'll listen. kind of. not really. until/unless he says something shocking. is biden ever going to shove obama aside and say, "naw, this is what we're gonna do?" of course not. it's not within his role. but this is art's show now. and now he CAN say and do what he pleases. but who would? what kind of an owner would interject themselves into the locker room like that? jerry jones, al davis, dan snyder . . . art rooney II? let's hope not.

and you say it's on tomlin that art interrupted the organizational flow, undermined the team's chosen leaders, removed one of its leaders from the locker room, and stomped his foot, sieg-heiled, and pronounced, "ve vill run de vootball!!" you think tomlin has performed so ineptly in leading this team to two super bowls in his five years that he "forced" rooney to fire his offensive coordinator? oh, that's right. tomlin didn't lead this team anywhere. he merely babysat cowher's brilliance. that same cowher who was 2-4 in conference title games (with 3 of those 4 losses coming to underdogs . . . at home?).

i think you're wasting being "worried" on the wrong guy . . .

 

exactamundo.

unbelievable that some want to spin this as a bad thing. apparently, upon being hired, tomlin was supposed to kick the door in, tell lebau to grab his pack of smokes and GTF out!! then scream that, "we're doing things my way or the highway! i'll show you who is the boss!! you guys like lebau? F.U.! he's gone! you like the 3-4? blitzburgh you call it? F.U.! we're running the 4-3! any questions?!"

this organization has been praised for its continuity. embrace it.

 

because there is a s-t-r-u-c-t-u-r-e to an o-r-g-a-n-i-z-a-t-i-o-n. do you think phil knight determines what nike is doing? bzzzzzzzztttt!!!! WRONG!!! there is a board of directors, a chairman, a president, a vice president, and blahblahblah depending upon how the corporation is structured. it is set up this way so that one man doesn't absorb too much power, make foolish decisions, think selfishly, and steer the entire ship into jagged rocks.

this year's champs: the ny giants. their leadership has been VERY rooney-esque (the chief and dan, anyways). they trust steve tisch to do his job. they trust coughlin to do his job. they put trust in their mid-level management to handle their tasks. it is how an effective organization is run. the year before that? packers. community-owned. no meddling owners. the year before that? saints. tom benson is very hands-off. let's payton do his thing. year before that? us. under dan rooney's leadership. year before that? giants. year before that? irsay letting dungy do his thing. how have al davis, jerry jones, and dan snyder fared during this time?

i'm not saying art II is going to be a poor leader. i would expect him to be great. but it's the offseason, there's little to talk about, we're yearning to talk about ANYTHING, and art II gave us reason to talk. he did something VERY uncharacteristic of the leadership of this organization. it's worth discussion.

people will stop making jerry jones comparisions the moment art rooney II stops exhibiting jerry jones-like behavior.

 

Again, you're not getting it. The points I am making are flying over your head because you come on these boards looking for fights instead of comprending posts. I'm not here to teach fifth-grade level reading comprehension skills.

 

I think it was time to step in.....Ben is at a crucial point in his career IMO....Also the rest of the Team are at or near reaching crucial times in their career.....A change had to be made and I have NP that Art stepped up and made it.......Now I guess we will have to wait and see how many more changes are needed????

Maybe Coach T knew Ben would not play ball??Maybe Coach T loved Arians?Maybe voach T simply doesn't like to micro manage?It could be a host of different things,,,will just have to speculate until we have more clarity..

 

where did you say you "hated" tomlin? semantics. i didn't put it in quotes when i said it so read it figuratively, not literally.

you "actually like the guy"?!?! tomlin? MIKE tomlin? we talking about the same guy? because the guy you referenced is so inept that his entire body of work was merely riding the coattails of another guy's hard work. you demanded that we "not make any mistake in that." nope, don't even try to debate any of this because, you suggested, "you're not going to win that argument." you suggest he lacks coaching, leadership, management, and disciplinarian skills, he has "no" decision-making abilities, he has no "clear vision", he has performed so poorly at his job that he "forced" ownership to act out and undermine their head coach which they have NEVER had to do in, as you pointed out, four decades (which "gave him a black eye in the process"), and he's such a buffoon that you don't understand how he can even get out of his own way (actually, you said "he has done just enough to not screw up" -- i've gotta make sure i quote here. don't want to miss the point again by choosing a word that doesn't even closely resemble your intentions) . . .

yeah . . . you like the guy, huh? how can i register for your chapter of the mike tomlin fan club? where do i send the check? to 123 Bulls**t Street? and you have the audacity to accuse my post of possessing "hot air?" ha!

pray tell. what do you, ahem, "like" about the guy? (other than ripping him to shreds?)[/quote:35m8xzwe]

Actually, I was too kind with the other post. It's third-grade level reading skills you don't seem to possess.

1. How is making a point that Tomlin rode Cowher's players and coaches to a Super Bowl saying I don't like him?
2. How is stating concern that Rooney had to trump Tomlin saying I don't like him?
3. How is saying he's done just enough not to screw up saying I don't like him?

Read any of my posts and tell me where I have ever stated...1. He's a bad head coach; 2. He sucks as a head coach; 3. I hate Tomlin; 4. I wish the Steelers had hired Whisenhunt; 5. The Steelers never should have hired Tomlin.

Am I not allowed to "question" some things about Tomlin and be concerned about the amount of control he has over the team and STILL like him and root for him? Only third-graders see the black/white. Adults, those of us who have been around a while, see that there are various shades of gray.

 

Again, you're not getting it. The points I am making are flying over your head because you come on these boards looking for fights instead of comprending posts. I'm not here to teach fifth-grade level reading comprehension skills.[/quote:30heb38y]

well, i hold an english lit degree from the university you supposedly teach at soooo . . . where should i lay blame to my lack of education?

i'm not looking for fights. you're the one who just went with the insult.

you're the guy who posted he was hoping we would lose to the broncos BEFORE THE GAME EVEN STARTED!! when you post stupid sh*t, you get it *****-slapped. soo . . . don't post stupid sh*t.

 

where did you say you "hated" tomlin? semantics. i didn't put it in quotes when i said it so read it figuratively, not literally.

you "actually like the guy"?!?! tomlin? MIKE tomlin? we talking about the same guy? because the guy you referenced is so inept that his entire body of work was merely riding the coattails of another guy's hard work. you demanded that we "not make any mistake in that." nope, don't even try to debate any of this because, you suggested, "you're not going to win that argument." you suggest he lacks coaching, leadership, management, and disciplinarian skills, he has "no" decision-making abilities, he has no "clear vision", he has performed so poorly at his job that he "forced" ownership to act out and undermine their head coach which they have NEVER had to do in, as you pointed out, four decades (which "gave him a black eye in the process"), and he's such a buffoon that you don't understand how he can even get out of his own way (actually, you said "he has done just enough to not screw up" -- i've gotta make sure i quote here. don't want to miss the point again by choosing a word that doesn't even closely resemble your intentions) . . .

yeah . . . you like the guy, huh? how can i register for your chapter of the mike tomlin fan club? where do i send the check? to 123 Bulls**t Street? and you have the audacity to accuse my post of possessing "hot air?" ha!

pray tell. what do you, ahem, "like" about the guy? (other than ripping him to shreds?)[/quote:1smwm7ka]

Actually, I was too kind with the other post. It's third-grade level reading skills you don't seem to possess.

1. How is making a point that Tomlin rode Cowher's players and coaches to a Super Bowl saying I don't like him?
2. How is stating concern that Rooney had to trump Tomlin saying I don't like him?
3. How is saying he's done just enough not to screw up saying I don't like him?

Read any of my posts and tell me where I have ever stated...1. He's a bad head coach; 2. He sucks as a head coach; 3. I hate Tomlin; 4. I wish the Steelers had hired Whisenhunt; 5. The Steelers never should have hired Tomlin.

Am I not allowed to "question" some things about Tomlin and be concerned about the amount of control he has over the team and STILL like him and root for him? Only third-graders see the black/white. Adults, those of us who have been around a while, see that there are various shades of gray.[/quote:1smwm7ka]

regarding the points:

1.) that's probably the biggest insult you can throw at our head coach that you falsely claim to "like." telling him his biggest accomplishment wasn't really his work at all. merely living off of the accomplishments of someone else. if you brought that to me to belittle something of that nature that i had achieved, i'd knock you on your hooha. i did exactly that in 2004 when a vp of a company who was a religious fanatic told me my extraordinary sales numbers were merely the result of god. i had nothing to do with it. we got into it, i knocked him on his a$$, i opened my own company and achieved great things ("massive sucess is the greatest form of revenge" - sinatra). you wanna strip tomlin of his greatest achievement and then go, "whaaaaaat? i still LIKE him."

it'll be interesting to see if, after we have success on offense with our new oc, you'll praise haley or merely suggest that he was riding the coattails of what arians had already created.

meanwhile, you probably blame bush for the plss poor job that obama is doing.

try judging people for their actions in the moment. tomlin achieved more in four years that cowher did in his entire fifteen-year career here. argue THAT. the statue of limitations on the barry switzer argument expired four years ago.

2.) how is stating rooney had to trump tomlin saying you don't like him? by embellishing the fact and suggesting that mike was wearing a "black eye" over embarrassing himself by "forcing" rooney to do something that organization hadn't been "forced" to do in over "forty years." give it a rest. you're backpedaling so damn fast you'r gonna fall off yer unicycle.

3.) how is saying he's done just enough to not screw up saying that you don't like him? please, dude! it's not like you're saying 'the jury is still out' or 'he hasn't lived up to expectations' or something like that. you're saying "he's done just enough to not screw up." you don't say the bullsh*t you're saying about people you "like."

you don't like the dude. roll with it. man up and back up what you're saying. that's honorable. but don't go on a tirade then backpedal. you've done that on other boards with your politics. you're as far left wing as it gets while claiming to be independent. have some backbone. be authentic. throwing insults about my reading comprehension? take ownership of your weak communication skills. i understand you're a liberal and conditioned to point out problems and lay blame, but start taking ownership of your inability to convey your point. you're the guy who wanted us to lose to the broncos in the playoffs so you'd feel better about not losing to new england. you literally wanted us to lose a playoff game. that's insane!!

you claim to like tomlin but offer no sentences to support your thesis. learn how to construct a paragraph: thesis, support, summary. that's third grade education, bro. you skip that year? you bash and bash and bash and then get offended when you're debated on it and throw out juvenile insults. that's the sign of a fighter being knocked down to the intellectual canvas. "uh, you're as dumb as a third grader!" what do you like about tomlin? you've given nothing but a brutal headbashing to the guy. you're all over the place. i don't look for fights, but i found someone who does. just talk, dude. it's a message board. i'm calling you out. fasten some balls on and come on back. give me something to discuss. not this, "you're a third-grader, bs." you're better than that. you're a great fan (except for the weird wanting us to lose to denver thing) with a wealth of knowledge. despite our differences, i enjoy reading it. bring it.

 

where did you say you "hated" tomlin? semantics. i didn't put it in quotes when i said it so read it figuratively, not literally.

you "actually like the guy"?!?! tomlin? MIKE tomlin? we talking about the same guy? because the guy you referenced is so inept that his entire body of work was merely riding the coattails of another guy's hard work. you demanded that we "not make any mistake in that." nope, don't even try to debate any of this because, you suggested, "you're not going to win that argument." you suggest he lacks coaching, leadership, management, and disciplinarian skills, he has "no" decision-making abilities, he has no "clear vision", he has performed so poorly at his job that he "forced" ownership to act out and undermine their head coach which they have NEVER had to do in, as you pointed out, four decades (which "gave him a black eye in the process"), and he's such a buffoon that you don't understand how he can even get out of his own way (actually, you said "he has done just enough to not screw up" -- i've gotta make sure i quote here. don't want to miss the point again by choosing a word that doesn't even closely resemble your intentions) . . .

yeah . . . you like the guy, huh? how can i register for your chapter of the mike tomlin fan club? where do i send the check? to 123 Bulls**t Street? and you have the audacity to accuse my post of possessing "hot air?" ha!

pray tell. what do you, ahem, "like" about the guy? (other than ripping him to shreds?)[/quote:1ct8y5r0]

Actually, I was too kind with the other post. It's third-grade level reading skills you don't seem to possess.

1. How is making a point that Tomlin rode Cowher's players and coaches to a Super Bowl saying I don't like him?
2. How is stating concern that Rooney had to trump Tomlin saying I don't like him?
3. How is saying he's done just enough not to screw up saying I don't like him?

Read any of my posts and tell me where I have ever stated...1. He's a bad head coach; 2. He sucks as a head coach; 3. I hate Tomlin; 4. I wish the Steelers had hired Whisenhunt; 5. The Steelers never should have hired Tomlin.

Am I not allowed to "question" some things about Tomlin and be concerned about the amount of control he has over the team and STILL like him and root for him? Only third-graders see the black/white. Adults, those of us who have been around a while, see that there are various shades of gray.[/quote:1ct8y5r0]

regarding the points:

1.) that's probably the biggest insult you can throw at our head coach that you falsely claim to "like." telling him his biggest accomplishment wasn't really his work at all. merely living off of the accomplishments of someone else. if you brought that to me to belittle something of that nature that i had achieved, i'd knock you on your hooha. i did exactly that in 2004 when a vp of a company who was a religious fanatic told me my extraordinary sales numbers were merely the result of god. i had nothing to do with it. we got into it, i knocked him on his a$$, i opened my own company and achieved great things ("massive sucess is the greatest form of revenge" - sinatra). you wanna strip tomlin of his greatest achievement and then go, "whaaaaaat? i still LIKE him."

it'll be interesting to see if, after we have success on offense with our new oc, you'll praise haley or merely suggest that he was riding the coattails of what arians had already created.

meanwhile, you probably blame bush for the plss poor job that obama is doing.

try judging people for their actions in the moment. tomlin achieved more in four years that cowher did in his entire fifteen-year career here. argue THAT. the statue of limitations on the barry switzer argument expired four years ago.

2.) how is stating rooney had to trump tomlin saying you don't like him? by embellishing the fact and suggesting that mike was wearing a "black eye" over embarrassing himself by "forcing" rooney to do something that organization hadn't been "forced" to do in over "forty years." give it a rest. you're backpedaling so damn fast you'r gonna fall off yer unicycle.

3.) how is saying he's done just enough to not screw up saying that you don't like him? please, dude! it's not like you're saying 'the jury is still out' or 'he hasn't lived up to expectations' or something like that. you're saying "he's done just enough to not screw up." you don't say the bullshlt you're saying about people you "like."

you don't like the dude. roll with it. man up and back up what you're saying. that's honorable. but don't go on a tirade then backpedal. you've done that on other boards with your politics. you're as far left wing as it gets while claiming to be independent. have some backbone. be authentic. throwing insults about my reading comprehension? take ownership of your weak communication skills. i understand you're a liberal and conditioned to point out problems and lay blame, but start taking ownership of your inability to convey your point. you're the guy who wanted us to lose to the broncos in the playoffs so you'd feel better about not losing to new england. you literally wanted us to lose a playoff game. that's insane!!

you claim to like tomlin but offer no sentences to support your thesis. learn how to construct a paragraph: thesis, support, summary. that's third grade education, bro. you skip that year? you bash and bash and bash and then get offended when you're debated on it and throw out juvenile insults. that's the sign of a fighter being knocked down to the intellectual canvas. "uh, you're as dumb as a third grader!" what do you like about tomlin? you've given nothing but a brutal headbashing to the guy. you're all over the place. i don't look for fights, but i found someone who does. just talk, dude. it's a message board. i'm calling you out. fasten some balls on and come on back. give me something to discuss. not this, "you're a third-grader, bs." you're better than that. you're a great fan (except for the weird wanting us to lose to denver thing) with a wealth of knowledge. despite our differences, i enjoy reading it. bring it.[/quote:1ct8y5r0]




I agree with Hollywood on this one, besides, you cant penalize Tomlin for nailing an interview at the right time to coach a very solid team. Those jobs are rare and hard to come by. Normally new coaches find jobs to coach a wreck. Switzer, Tomlin....hey, they still have to win games. Pats 2007 and this years GB team... both tanked. Nothing is a sure thing. Cowher could have coached another 10 years and just lost AFCC game after Championship game. People used to want his head for being conservative, now he gets credit. Man, whats going to happen in 15 years for the next guy?

Cowher left. He got his credit for 2005. Tomlin gets credit for what happens during his time.

 

OK gang … lets all calm down ....
Wandererer, while I actually agree with both your observations about Rooney's poor handling of Arain's dismissal and the fact that 12to88 is being disingenuous about his feeling for Tomlin's, you have crossed the line. Politics and one's supposed political believes have nothing to do with this discussion. By dragging them into a football discussion you are making this personal and adding an incendiary element to the discussion that will cause the whole conversation to degrade into a name calling farce. You should know better, since you apparently did leadership consulting in the past. In what leadership treaties does it suggest that political labeling and name calling leads to consensus building or is good debate strategy? By doing this, you simply undermine the credibility of you argument.
12to88 ... come on dude, to keep say you have nothing against Tomlin, is ridicules. There is a thing called context .you may have never said “I Hate Tomlin”, but you certainly worded your comment in such a way that it could not be interpreted any other way. There is nothing wrong this, but man up and accept that position.

Come on we are all Steeler fans here Let keep it on the up and up.

 

Yep .. without a doubt ..... frustration can drag us all down

 

Nice post, playa.

 

Let's say we're talking about Silverback. Now, I like how James plays, like his mentality when it comes to football, have "fanned" him on Facebook. Does that mean I can't call into question his decision-making when he made the statements about Ben and the commish? Or the photoshoot that accompanied it? I don't think it's disingenuous to say, "Hey, I love James Harrison, but at times he does things that make me scratch my head..." And I think a lot of fans LOVE james but don't always like the things he does.

Same with Tomlin. I really like HIM personally, like his demeanor, like that he tends to have this team mentally prepared. But I do sometimes "wonder" about what kind of leader/decision-maker he is. When I say he rode Cowher's team to a SB, I am just stating a fact. That wasn't Tomlin's set of players. By the same token, much of Cowher's SB XXX team was NOLL'S TEAM. (People forget this, btw.) I am not pointing this out to demean or devalue Tomlin as a head coach...just to illustrate that Tomlin came into a pretty good situation and that we don't really know yet what kind of coach he can/will be once we see HIS players and once he has to make big-time staff decisions. To me, the jury is out on that--I hope many can agree.

 

actually, the political aspect of my post was meant solely for him. it's a carryover conversation from another steelers board that he and i posted on. so, although you think it might undermine the credibility of my argument FOR YOU (and rightfully so) . . . it's relative to the history of the discussions i've had WITH HIM in the recent past. the other board was littered with conspiracy theorists and 'truthers' (for some unknown reason) posting rant after rant about 9/11 being an inside job so politics was pretty prevalent and openly debated on that board (to my displeasure). i find no place for it on a steelers message board, have had it force-fed to me on the only steelers message board i could access over the past couple of years (the steelers' main web page, as we all know, was harder to access than nasa's top secret files), and will do my best refrain from 'going there' in the future. just thought i should clear up WHY it was mentioned in my argument with him.

 

Well actually I think our argument fails on every level. First your Silverback to Tomlin compare is apples to orange…. You praise all Harrison direct football skills, but are critical of Tomlin on the most important skill of a head coach, leadership and decision making. Personal stuff is all horse manure… we do not personally know either of these men and frankly their lives outside of football have no impact on how they should be judged at their jobs (expect if they were to break the law).
So with that out of the way... your whole argument is that we can’t be sure if Tomlin is a good leader/decision-maker, because in your words he "rode Cowher's" team to all the success he has had to date. This is a view that a small number of posters seem to love to level against Tomlin. This really makes no sense to me on more than one level.
First, if this were really true then head coaches are of no importance, just go get a great GM get the right players and bingo you win. Funny though isn't it that it doesn’t seem to work that way. Teams around the league success often wildly changes when head coached are replaced. Just look at Denver and the 49ers, both teams’ personnel didn't dramatically change but there performance sure did. Why was this not the case with Tomlin and Pittsburgh? Is it possible that the Steelers success under Tomlin could because he is a damn good coach, just as Cower was?
The second part of our argument that makes no sense to me is idea. We will only know “what kind of coach he can/will be once we see HIS players and once he has to make big-time staff decisions." Well I have news for you, just like under Cower, the "big-time staffing decisions" will never be his exclusively. That is because we have a GM named Colbert who has a major say in all Steeler personnel decisions. Hell you could argue that the big drafting decision in the past 30 years was Dan Rooney’s when, over Cowher's objections, he demanded that Big Ben be picked. I don't hear any cries about Cowher's poor decision- making prowess over this (nor should there be).
The third place where your argument falls apart is this idea that Tomlin took basically a Cowher staffed team to his 2 superbowls. If you look at the numbers is just not the case. Between Cowher’s 2006 team and Tomlin's 2008 superbowl team, 31 players were no longer on the team. Yes, half the players were replaced. This does not include Tomlin decision to let Joey Porter walk and start a relatively unknown backup LB named James Harrison. I vividly remember the cries of outrage and doom when this happened. However, I guess that decision worked out ok, along with the decision to let our other starting LB (Haggins) go and replace him with one of "his" people , a guy named La Marr Woodley. The 2010 team was even further removed from Cowher's last team, with 44 players now gone. So at what point is the team no longer Cowher's old team? 20 players gone? 30 players gone? 40 players gone? All the players? My point is it a nonsensical measurement and really has no impact on how you evaluate Tomlin effectiveness as a head coach.

In the end, the only way to evaluate him as is the team's performance. He is paid to make the Steelers win and be any fair measurement he has done that very well.
Games over .500: 30
Super Bowl Wins: 1
Overall Championships: 1
Conference Championships: 2
Division Championships: 4

 

No Problem Wanderer ... it can happen to any of us ..... I am not trying to be the forum police or any thing.... I just hate when politics ruin a good football discussion. :-D

 

.... WELL SAID.

 

LUCKY BASTARD IS RIGHT! SHE IS VERY HOT. WOW!

 

Hitler.

 

My point was that Rooney has involved himself in decisions that are appropriate for his position. Jones gets involved in much "smaller" everyday decisions. Yes, of course Jones does have the right to be involved in these everyday decisions. I just don't believe it to be wise.