Jarvis Jones and Bud Dupree sack totals

I disagree, Eifert could have been used as a redzone threat also you could use Miller to block and Eifert as a pass catcher in 2 TE sets.

 

I'm curious as to what about the 4-3 you think would be a better fit for Jones. His college career was as the Mack in a one-gap 3-4.

 

Absolutely right. The hamstring crippled him.

 

Yeah wasn't he supposed to be as close to a plug and play guy as we had drafted in some time?

 

Jerry Rice 40 time 4.71 seconds. Your point being? Worilds was faster than Woodley.

Woodley was stronger and a better pass rusher and a better run defender and a better player (when healthy). You'll get no argument from me. He was great before all those health issues. But Worilds was more athletic, and yes, I'd take him in a sprint against Woodley; even a young Woodley. Also, since Worilds wasn't the pass rusher Woodley was, it made it easier to drop him.

No way! Harrison dropped something like 35%-40% of pass plays. That's something not everyone knows, and makes all those sacks and pressures he racked up even more impressive, when he's being compared to guys like Suggs and Ware, who drop into coverage about 1% of pass plays. Harrison was actually great in coverage, and was in it a lot; but because he was such an amazing pass rusher, people assume he rushed all the time. I don't have a stat for Woodley, but I'd guess he dropped more like 10%-15% of pass plays.

If anyone has those exact stats, as well as stats on our current players, I'd love to see them.

 

Could have, absolutely. It's obvious that a 2 TE system works in the NFL. The Steelers would not have done it, however, and Eifert would have sat. I was exaggerating with 15 snaps over 2+ years. He'd probably have gotten a few per game.

Be glad they didn't waste a pick on a guy that doesn't play, like Dri Archer.

 

It was not that Dri "didn't". It's that he "couldn't". LOL!

 

Yeah, I don't get it either, not surprised though as most of his thoughts on football are hard for me to understand.

 

What made Jones such an uneasy spend of our 1st rounder (at least for me) was the contrast that existed between his college numbers and scouting reports. Sure, he put up impressive stats for an SEC club, but then there were some of the qualitiies that kept showing on his report: lean frame that needs some bulk to shake blockers; good first step, but not elite; only has one or two rush moves, and has trouble fluidly changing them up mid-play if one isn't working, etc.

To me he was one of those guys that put some good numbers, yet lacked some of the fundamentals you'd expect from someone who did. That, along with the potential medical risk, had me voting PASS at 1.17. But, hey, long lo' time ago I thought Ryan Leaf would be more successful QB than Peyton Manning.

 

Yeah drafting is a huge crap shoot. My whole thing about these guys in the SEC is that I don't really know where their numbers come from. I mean you know that when they go to those huge schools that they have 2 or 3 games a year where they play these no name schools whose players will never see a pro field unless they pay to and you know they can pad their stats against teams like that. So my question would be "Do they put these crazy numbers up against real contenders or just scrubs?" and does the NCAA consider that when giving them accolades and do franchises look at those things when they draft them? I guess really I'm saying do they look at the "quality" of the numbers based on the "quantity" of the numbers?

 

Will Bud be dominate? he has potential and is definitely heading in the right direction.
Now, as for JJ, Ive always thought that his health issue not his injury issue would be a problem.
He has flashes of what we want every now and then but no consistency.We havent seen consistency from the outside lbers
in years.We started drafting these hybrid lightweight lbers to go out with the te's and rbs in coverage and dont have enough beef to stop the run.
We shouldve stuck with what we know.Big neckboned athletes

 

Well, they still have Dri Archer...what? He was cut? Never mind. 4-3? Will be a good player on another team? Check please....

 

Maybe you should look up stats before you tell me I'm wrong?

From 2008-2012 percentages of pass plays that the OLB rushed:

71% Worilds
65% Woodley
62% Harrison

Worilds and Woodley had near identical combines. Difference of .02 in the 40, Woodley better vertical and 3 cone and Worilds better shuttle. I can't debate your eye test as to who is faster the same as I couldn't argue against Santa Claus. Worilds is credited with 1 INT and 5 PD on his career- hardly great numbers for 37 starts.

Per SD:

In 2014 Worilds had 7.5 sacks in 16 games. 50 pressures on 436 pass rushes.

Harrison had 5.5 sacks in 11 games. 41 pressures on 224 rushes.

I cant find the numbers for how many pass plays he was involved in but he played 978 snaps. So on just less than half of ALL plays Worilds was rushing.

Like I said: Woodley dropped a lot (35% of pass plays not 10-15%), the same percent as Harrison, and he dropped more than Worilds he just didn't make excuses.

 

You think we draft another OLB? I don't see us picking up the 5th year option on JJ either. I believe this will be James Harrison last year so, do we give Chick a shot? Put Arthur Moats on the right side and start Dupree on the left? We got some decisions to make.

 

That just happened

 

Yeah it did!

#1. Where'd you get those numbers?

#2. According to your own numbers, I was right that Harrison dropped more than Woodley. Maybe you should look up blah blah blah?

#3. Some of your post may have been directed at someone else, but if was supposed to be for me, I don't see the relevance of Worilds' passes defensed. I never made any kind of argument that he was good at it, or better than Woodley. I just said he was more athletic, and I stand by that. Woodley was always kind of lumbering. Also, what's with the Harrison v. Worilds stats? This is not the first time (even in this thread) you've tried to disprove a point I wasn't making. Let's go back to my quote, the one you first took issue with:

Granted, the first part was unclear about whether I meant their entire careers or just the most recent years, but I think the highlighted red portion cleared it up. Worilds took over for Woodley, and felt like he didn't get the same chances LaMarr did when LaMarr was starting. That's my statement. You didn't need to try to convince me Woodley was better, or Harrison was better, or Worilds didn't get many interceptions, or whatever you were trying to do.

#4. The sort-of relevant portion of your rebuttal is that Woodley actually dropped more than Worilds. But even if your numbers are accurate, they're still for 2008-2012. The more relevant number to this conversation would be Worilds' rushing percentage in the year after he took over for Woodley, because that's what we were talking about. That's when he "complained," and that's when he was starting and giving us an apples to apples comparison. It makes sense that if you include his earlier years, when he was seeing a small amount of snaps in relief of Woodley, that he'd have more rushes and fewer drops into coverage; it's easier to stick a young guy in there and tell him to rush, as opposed to ask him to know his assignments in coverage. Also, I think it makes more sense to stick fresh legs in to get the QB, not drop into the flat. By the same token, I bet if you included 2007, Woodley's rush percentage would have gone up, since he was backing up Haggans and only popping in sometimes. But I'm not sure, since you're the one with the numbers.

Do you happen to have those numbers for 2007, 2013, and 2014? Not accusing you of anything shady, but those are the years that would help my case the most. 2007 Woodley is a better comparison for 2010-2012 Worilds, and in the second half of 2013 Worilds was a beast rushing the passer. I'll touch on 2014 below.

#5. To refresh your memory, the part we're actually debating was Worilds complaining about not getting the chances to rush, and Woodley having the same problem but shutting up and not making excuses. Do I have that right?

Yes I do. Okay, let's see.

Here's Worilds making excuses for sucking and complaining, in an excerpt from a Post-Gazette article:

I don't know what that reporter was doing, deliberately pointing out he felt like Worilds wasn't complaining. He obviously was.


And here's Woodley definitely NOT making excuses OR complaining, in an excerpt from a Steelers.com article:

Could you spot the difference between those non-complaining but honest answers to reporters' questions? I highlighted one of them in blue and the other in purple. That's about it. By the way, I concede my guess of 10-15% was wrong. Even my conservative guess would have been only 25%. But Woodley's guess was pretty wrong too, and he should know better. The real number was 65/35, not 50-50, per this article whose source is PFF.

As for Worilds' pass rush percentage in 2014, his first year as starter and the year he made the "complaint"? (The one that got this whole thing started...) Did he have a case? According to the same Post-Gazette article (who got it from PFF), at the point in the year he "complained," Worilds was rushing the passer on just 56% of pass plays, and dropping back on 42%. (Not sure about the missing 5 plays. Maybe he did something else, like crash down on a RB on play action. Or maybe they were penalties.) It was a noticeable decrease in pass rush opportunities compared to Woodley, and people were even talking about it on this board. Not sure if you consider TTF a credible source, but here's a quote:

There are more, but I don't want to drag anyone else into this.

 

Can't do it. That's why NE and others shredded DL's defenses in his late years.

 

I thought we all agreed to give JJ the rest of the year before any more comments on him being a no.1 pick bust. It doesn't look good for him so far. After this year, please don't say give him more time.

 

@Snack

All the stats were from Steelers Depot except the combine numbers. Athletically Woodley and Worilds were a lot closer than you think.

I thought Woodley dropped more than Harrison. I was wrong by 3% according to SD and for that I am eternally remorseful.

Worilds did rush more often than Woodley and Harrison both. Harrison and Woodley each had seasons where they dropped into coverage more than any other OLB.

My point was Lebeau's defense didn't change. Woodley and Worilds had the same responsibilities but different production. The numbers confirm that to anyone not going by a gut feeling.

The bottom line is that Worilds was an above average OLB who has been replaced by Dupree who has a shot to be special.

The ROLB is a giant question mark next year (maybe Moats starts with Harrison as a backup if he hasn't been retired/cut). Jarvis hasn't shown anything to merit 8M next year ans it would be a shame to waste the cap.

DE and ILB are the only positions on defense that do not need upgrading to restore the elite level we were accustomed to for the better part of a decade.

 

I don't think the term "bust" is helpful. To me Jarvis has shown he doesn't have the required pass rush ability to start at ROLB for the future.

If the Steelers were able to cut Jarvis at the end of the season and re-sign him for less would be beneficial as depth and in subpackages.

Jarvis does have good instincts and diagnoses well. He is often around the ball but just can't quite get there.

 

LOL! I always wondered if the complaints from Jason Worilds were warranted. Here's a question though. IF Worilds had played under Butler do you think he would have had more shots to blitz and spent less time in coverage?

 

But didn't we draft him to be a pass rusher? Yet you agree he does not have pass rushing ability. Just saying he is not bad and so far he is playing like a fourth to seven rounder and not a first rounder. If he continues at this pace by the end of the year he will be a first round bust.

 

I have no idea. I don't think LeBeau had Worilds drop extra because of anything personal. I don't think it was a plan. I think it was an adjustment he made (he did make adjustments) to help a struggling defense, and because Worilds was not the outstanding pass rusher we were used to at the position, it was much more doable to take him off that position, compared to Harrison or Woodley in their prime.

 

Yeah I think Lebeau definitely adjusted his system and not just for the backers. Our secondary and corners used to play much closer to but I think as guys started to age and not have clear replacements it sorta softened our d a little bit. I think some of that is still there but we see that we're better in the red zone and are creating turnovers when we can play tighter and not have to worry about guys getting steps on us.