Why the D will be improved

It's too early to tell if the defense will be improved, a lot depends on the progress of Jarvis, Shazier and addressing the needs in the secondary. I think Butler will be more aggressive than LeBeau, and get back to blitzburgh.

 

The Pittsburgh Steelers, Keith Butler, Developmental Pass-Rushers, and Recent Pro Days

by Dominic DiTolla 100w ago

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I for one would be excited and intrigued if the Steelers decided to take a talented Pass-Rusher like Jarvis Jones, Barkevious Mingo, Bjoern Werner, or Damontre Moore with their 1st Round selection in April’s Draft. Unfortunately, because the franchise has so many issues to fix on their roster in addition to Outside Linebacker, they might not elect to take a player to develop at the position until Day 2 or Day 3 on “Draft Weekend.”
Why am I mentioning this right now?
Well, on Wednesday and Thursday, Pittsburgh’s Scouts and Linebackers Coach Keith Butler attended a couple of notable college “Pro Days” at Auburn and Texas Christian. During this time, Butler and Pittsburgh’s Scouts evaluated two projected post-Round 1 Pass-Rushers, Corey Lemonier and Stansly Maponga.


LOL BF, I'd think it's a lot more than just saying, yea he looks good. he works with the scouts to single out certain players to choose from. of course he's not the final say as a position coach but they are highly influential in the process.

 

it's fair to say : how many good pass rusher we missed during recent drafts ? yeah houston is one that btw play behind an incredible defensive line .. is not easy to find a great nfl pass rusher in the draft
it's fair to say also ..that jarvis jones was a pick that when made a lot of people questioned about it (expecially in another forum i read ) here i don't remember

 

Just out of idle curiosity why are you laying so much at Troy's feet? The days of Troy freelancing and being able to use his athleticism to cover up for guessing wrong were long gone before this season even started. The defense's learning curve wasn't affected by Troy or DL letting Troy be Troy. They had Troy up in run support more than he was in the secondary. Youthful exuberance had more to do with guys being out of position than Troy leaving guys high and dry. There were guys breaking backside contain because they wanted to make the big play, there were guys opening gaps in the line because they wanted to be the one making the tackle but instead allowed them to gain positive yards. Cortez regressing not due to Troy playing, Mitchell playing with a huge chip and drawing 15 yard penalties, not Troy's fault, the PI calls again not on Troy, Mitchell leaving his man uncovered because he is looking to make a "splash" play not on Troy. There is a lot of things that Troy can be faulted for but hindering the development of the younger guys isn't one of them. If Troy retires and the youngsters struggle again who will be the placed on the alter this time?

 

This is why at least 3 db's have to be brought in
whether thru the draft or FA. We should know fairly soon what some of the Steelers intentions are.

 

I always imagined it was more like:
HC and GM draw up list of needs
OC and DC make their case for which need should be addressed when
If they decide to go for a particular position, that's when the positional coach comes in to make a case for who should be targeted.

So in that way, it could be a case of a LBer coach having a fairly big say in who was drafted, but only after a decision was made further up the tree. I'm sure others here are more clued into the process, though.

 

Just out of curiosity, why are you laying so much at Mitchell's feet?

Oh - wait. No, no - forget I asked that.

 

I realize that none of us can say it will be better for a FACT, I just think that due to the things I mentioned, it will be on a track towards improvement.

 

LOL the OP's premise just reminded me of the wildcard game official game thread and the boards shortly after the loss where guys were going crazy blaming Troy starting for the loss when it had more to do with other guys being at fault yet many maintained Troy starting messed with the chemistry. It was some interesting logic behind the thinking for sure.

 

of course the GM and head coach decide what and where we draft players, then the co-o's pow wow with them on needs in said branches of the offense or defense, but everybody is involved.

position coaches that have been here as long as butler and Mitchell would have a lot of credence involved in finding the right options with the scouts to fit what we do. it would be crazy to think it's not a collective study and agreement on certain players.

it's not 5 people wanting 5 different players. all the input goes to probably 2-3 guys at each position they all agree on. then boil it down to 1-2. in the end Colbert has the say so and I'm sure can be overruled at any time by the owner.

that doesn't mean butler isn't part of the process though. that should be his strength, because of what DL wanted from his position. I'm sure they take high value of the input of any coach. it would be crazy to think otherwise.

 

OK, first of all, yes, they put Troy closer to the LOS a lot more last season; this is true. But in case you didn't notice, he screwed up there a lot too, missing tackles, flying into the backfield and letting the ball carrier get by. I do believe they were trying to 1.) improve their rushing D by putting Troy up there, and, 2.) wanted to get him out of the secondary, where he made a habit of being caught in the middle of no where - not covering anyone - when he played back. Thirdly, his stats fell off a cliff. Regardless of where they lined him up, he was a shell of his former self. His 40 tackles were nearly HALF of his career high. He had a total of ONE pass defended, ONE. Just a year ago he had 11, and in 2008 (maybe his last good year) he had 17. He had zero sacks and ZERO picks. Not only are these not #s of a super star, as Dick would have you believe Troy still was, but they are not acceptable #s for ANY starting NFL SS. But, Dick would ramble on and on about how great Troy is. Is it any wonder - that with our DC hitching our wagon to this horse - that our D became weak?

http://www.nfl.com/player/troypolamalu/2505621/careerstats

Matter of fact, TP was 142nd in tackles in the league; no one can convince me he is still a top player. But with Dick and their mutual hero worship, you'd never know that TP wasn't even in the top 20 of SS's and not in the top 30 of all safeties, yet, he was being featured in Pgh as if he were a top play maker. Reality just didn't match up with Dick's perception, which can occur with advance age, so I am not faulting him for it. It's not like he chose to be out of touch - it's not his fault. He is given a pass for it, but, appropriately, should no longer fill the role of DC all things considered. Let's just say I am enthused that the Steelers figured this out, as, their way is to be slow to react to things, and they were here, but at least they figured it out at this point. Dick can draw a pay check down in TN for at least another year, but I hope he knows when it's time to shut it down. Smell the roses, buddy.

 

I am not sure to which game you are referring to, but I do recall a game, where, after the team got used to playing sans Troy, and started playing better without him than with him, he was re-introduced as the starter and the D went back to being weak. This did happen. This is precisely the kind of thing that hurt us with the near-80 year old DC being loyal to a fault to his former star player. They would let TP free lance and the net result was a D with glaring holes and guys coming wide open because TP would guess wrong. This didn't just begin this season, there were signs of it longer than that.

 

I don't think Troy lost the wildcard game, but I do believe that the "chemistry" or whatever was better when Will Allen and Mitchell were the starting safeties. Troy is not Troy if he's simply playing assignment football and not freelancing. Troy continued to try to freelance somewhat and the defense, quite frankly, was less disciplined when Troy was in there. Will Allen is not a great safety but he's a disciplined safety. When he started the Steelers played more disciplined football and weren't as susceptible to the big play because Troy was out of position and Mitchell was lost trying to figure out how to compensate.

 

None of that equates to how Troy is causing the younger players to be slow in developing, none of it points to why the secondary struggled. We all know that Troy was a shadow of his former self, that his numbers fell off but taking those facts and postulating a theory that the defense will be greatly improved with Dick Lebeau gone and Troy possibly retiring is a big stretch. The type of logic your applying is called a syllogism where a major and minor premise are known to be true and so the conclusion is also true. Lets take your one game example

1.) Troy is hurt not starting
2.) The defense and secondary in particular played better.

Conclusion: The defense was better when Troy is hurt and on the bench.

1.) Troy started the wildcard game
2.) The secondary performed horribly

Conclusion: Troy starting caused the defense to be worse

Now both of those could be true and they could both be wrong. The three or four game stretch where Troy was hurt and the secondary performed better had some other factors than just Troy sitting out. Harrison returned from injury as did Shazier. McClendon returning to the line-up, more pressure upfront means the secondary looks closer to what we are used to seeing. Some solid play by guys just getting comfortable in the system. There are plenty of positives and negatives to take away form the season but dumping on Troy for getting old isn't the main reason they had problems.

I started a thread towards the end of the season to explore whether people though Troy could extend his career by changing his game and becoming a more prototypical safety. I think if he couldn't be Troy and do the things he does then he would walk away but is was an interesting debate. So No I am not defending Troy based on some glorified image of him, I just don't think he was the lynchpin in why the defense performed like they did.

 

and troy's style was fine when troy was troy and we had a good pass rush. now troy can't do what troy used to do and when allen played we played a more conventional defense.

will allen is old too though and is not the answer, but if shark moves in we will see a much more conventional defense being played again with he and Mitchell. that's exactly what we need but have not been used to seeing.

troy's only come along once in a lifetime. we now need to go back to conventional assignment football on D. troy is not part of that style of equation anymore. that ship has sailed.

we need to find better coverage type of safeties now. it will help the corners and backend, until we get the front end back up to pressure. not having consistent front end and backend play weakens the defense as a whole when we try to freelance.

our freelancing may now go back to LB in the form of shazier I believe. at least that would make the most sense. he's the guy most capable of that style of play on the team now. it's got to be a total new evolution of steeler defense as we change capabilities of players. if that makes sense.

 

IDK, I think when some common sense and "the eye test" is applied, it sure does seem that the D played better without Troy than with him the last few years. My theory is that with TP in there, he is given this free pass to freelance, and when it does NOW, in his current state, it ends up leaving gaping holes in the D, because he guessed wrong, and, as Dick would say, "The most instinctive player he has ever seen" has gone from a guy making splash plays, to a guy who applies wrong guessing, leaving the entire D at risk. With only 40 tackles, zero picks, ONE pass defended it is clear that TP being on the field is not a benefit to the D; it is a hindrance, but Dick couldn't see this in his blind man crush for TP, and it's one reason he had to go. Now you can claim "syllogism" all you want, but bottom line is the D played worse with TP on the field. It was obvious to most of us. TP on the field turns the contest into 11 on 10 instead of 11 on 11. It will be interesting to see how the D performs sans Troy and Dick this year and to see if whoever plays SS puts up better production than TP's 40 tackles, zero picks, 1 pass defended, etc. I am gonna go out on a limb say WHOEVER plays SS is going to increase production over what TP did last season. We will have to wait and see.

 

Common sense and the eye test showed that Moats was much better than Worilds when he was on the field and the defense played better does that mean Worilds is to blame for the inconsistency of the defense? You are focusing on one area and attributing it to being the whole problem. The defense didn't play better because Troy sat out several games in a row, although that did contribute to playing better, there were other factors like the resurgance of guys like Harrison and Keisel, the continued development of Heyward, Tuitt showing he should be starting over Cam Thomas, Shazier working back into the line-up, second and third year guys like Spence and Williams having things start to click. So yes we could sit here all day and point to this being a reason or that being a reason and the discussion won't get very far. So lets address your points in this response.

1.)My theory is that with TP in there, he is given this free pass to freelance, and when it does NOW, in his current state, it ends up leaving gaping holes in the D, because he guessed wrong, and, as Dick would say, "The most instinctive player he has ever seen" has gone from a guy making splash plays, to a guy who applies wrong guessing, leaving the entire D at risk.

Yes in years past Troy was allowed to roam and his skills allowed him to get back in the play but not anymore. Like any member of the defense when he guesses wrong it leaves the others to pick up the slack. Now I don't break down film like PWP, Mac or HugeSnack do so I will defer to them when it comes to tape but unless you can point to specific moments in games where Troy was freelancing versus playing where he was suppose to given the play call, down and distance, and situation I can't address guessing wrong and not being you I don't know what you were seeing. So I don't know what plays you saw that he guessed wrong. As far as DL and his quotes to the press, what would you have him say? Has he ever raked a player over the coals no matter what his relationship with them was? Maybe he should have said Troy had lost it don't think that is the way to inspire confidence in your players.

2.)With only 40 tackles, zero picks, ONE pass defended it is clear that TP being on the field is not a benefit to the D; it is a hindrance, but Dick couldn't see this in his blind man crush for TP, and it's one reason he had to go.

Mike Mitchell had 71 tackles with 53 solo tackles and 18 assists 0 interceptions, 0 sacks, William Gay had 63 tackles, 58 solo and 11 assists 0 sacks, 3 interceptions returned for TD's and zero sacks, Jason Worilds had 59 tackles, 39 solo and 20 assists, 7.5 sacks, one interception for 30 yards. Troy had 61 tackles with 40 solo and 21 assists, 0 interceptions and 0 sacks. Lawrence Timmons had 132 tackles 87 solo 45 assists, 2 sacks and zero interceptions What conclusions can we take from this? Troy played in 12 games and his numbers versus Gay, Mitchell, Worilds and Timmons who started all 16 games are about even. So how is that not benifitting the team by being on the feild when he played four less games than the top 5 on the team in tackles and having similar numbers.

3.)Now you can claim "syllogism" all you want, but bottom line is the D played worse with TP on the field. It was obvious to most of us. TP on the field turns the contest into 11 on 10 instead of 11 on 11.

I do call it that because you aren't supporting your theories with facts just the basic premises that they appeared to play better. If Troy on the field meant playing eleven to ten then having Cam Thomas on the feild meant having them play 11 to 9. There were plenty of guys guessing wrong, playing out of position, running around laying hits instead of wrapping up, making stupid mistakes and showing youthful inexperiece but again lets dump on Troy because at one time he was allowed to free lance and that must be the problem not guys playing in the system for the first time, rookies, guys not trying as hard *cough Cam Thomas cough* injuries and more.

Yes Troy's skills have declined and yes he was out of place more this year than in years past but don't pretend that the defense imprved in leaps and bounds with his being on the sideline or that things will improve to the point of this being a top 5 defense in passing. I forsee more growing pains this year than we saw this past season.

Coincidentally Revis had 47 tackles 41 solo and 6 assists, 2 interceptions and 0 sacks do these numbers prove he didn't deserve to be on the field? Richard Sherman had 57 total with 45 solo and 12 assists with 4 interceptions and 0 sacks kinda low numbers for two of the premire CB's in the league. Earl Thomas had 97 tackles, 71 solo 26 assists with 0 sacks and 1 int in the full 16 games and he is arguably one of the top safeties in the league these are numbers that aren't far off Troy's for the season

 

OK, but correct me if I'm wrong but none of those players played in basically a LB position for much of the game, especially Revis and Sherman who's bread and butter is in pass coverage - it's like their super speciality. Are we going to go insane and pretend TP can cover like those guys? Of course not. So, to compare tackles of those guys to TP who can't cover and played like a LB for much of the game, well, that isn't even apples and oranges. That is more like comparing apples and apes. Those guys are so good in coverage that if they had zero tackles it wouldn't take away from their value. With TP, who can't cover anyone, he better put up decent tackle #s, or what is he good for? Hair flying around, shampoo commercials and a love for DL?

Also, you say TP wasn't freelancing any more; then tell me why we saw so many plays where a WR was wide open, and he wasn't covering anyone at all. When he was some where on the field (not LB) and there were wide open targets near him, but near enough for him to cover whatsoever, then, I think maybe he was freelancing and not doing it very well. Why else did DL need to tell the media, every week, about how great TP was with his instincts? I would say denial: He had to keep reminding us how great he was with his instincts because it was apparent less and less on the field.

 

Sadly, I agree with your assessment of Troy. He is truly one of the great Steelers to ever wear the Black & Gold but he's gone from being a tremendous asset to a huge liability on the field. Like DL, I appreciate all of the contributions Troy has made to the greatest organization in all of pro sports, but it's time. :-(

 

I think 18th in the league in defense is pretty decent considering the personnel. ILB and DE are the strong points of the defense and were ravaged by injuries. Tuitt starting over Thomas and Shazier being healthy will be the biggest upgrades next year.

There is no pass rush (seriously 7.5 sacks to lead the team? Hey, that is still 4.5 more than Jarvis Jones has over the last two years.) That is a personnel issue.

I do not expect a top ten defense next season. Also, the schedule is MUCH more difficult. Butler is going to get a lot of criticism.

 

Ok you need to make up your mind and stop moving the goalline. First you say Troy isn't productive and throw up his incomplete numbers when his numbers clearly show he was in the top five for productive Steelers in four fewer games. then you talk about Troy being used as a linebacker and his numbers again showing he wasn't being productive when they have him ranked third behind the two highest paid and productive members of the LB corps. So which is it if he is being used as a LB more than the top CB's and Safeties in the league he is ranked third on the team in production by his stat totals, then you change tack again to talk about coverage which when he is being used in run support he is not going to be in coverage and he did put up good numbers for tackles enough to be in the top five.

The second paragraph makes me question if you know what zone defense is all about, you have zones so if you cover your zone then yes guys come in and out of that zone of coverage which makes having great communication the most important factor out there. Troy covers his man until it looks like he is moving to the next zone then he hands off responsibility and his next priority has to be identified. In cover-two they leave the middle of the field open and it can be exploited by multiple intermediate routes that fall into the gaps of the zone coverage. In cover three you see them backoff the sideline routes(ten yard cushion) and focus on the middle of the field. If Troy plays up near the box and hands his man off to say Shazier but Shazier has bitten hard on the play fake and sprinted toward the line in an effort to tackle the RB who doesn't have the ball that leaves his coverage zone wide open and it looks like Troy let a guy go free and make a catch for positive yards when in fact he played his responsibility. If Troy comes on a blitz and his route is between the DE and NT but the QB dumps it off to a the RB in the flat where again someone has blown their assignment in a effort to guess the play it looks like Troy is freelancing and ignoring his responsibility because he started out lined up near the slot receiver.

I am not comparing the coverage skills of TP to Revis or Sherman or even Thomas but to show that simple numbers don't revel how things played out on the field. Deion Sanders had low numbers because QB's just didn't throw his way does that mean he isn't productive? Revis and Sherman draw similar comparisons and Qb's avoiding throwing at them. You are saying Troy sucked in coverage and here is my proof his numbers but that doesn't show how many times the guy he is covering was targeted, it doesn't address whether DL had him in coverage or run support and they really don't support the theory that he was unproductive when on the field because he would be ranked third if playing LB and top five for all players on defense with four fewer games.

All this aside it still does not prove how his being on the field caused the regression of Cortez Allen, Mike Mitchell failing to wrap up guys and going for the big hit, Cam Thomas being a horrible FA pick-up, Ike Taylor breaking his arm, Jason Worilds complaining about not being allowed to rush the passer, basically three rookies rotating at ILB, Timmons playing the buck instead of the mac, Steve McClendon getting hurt, Jarvis Jones missing half the season or Big play Willie Gay being the best corner they had. None of that is because Troy was on the field or DL saying he has the best instincts of any player he has ever coached. Not one thing. The guy was a shell of his former self but that didn't cause nearly as many problems as people think.

 

what Gerry dulac says is gospel? really BF?

if butler likes a guy isn't that his pick? ok, i'll give you I may not have worded that properly. of course I don't think butler picks the LB'ers on his own for the steelers. why would we need kev?

if I remember correctly KC,MT and butler were at the Miami pro day visiting sean spence the year he was drafted and not DL. I think your not really grasping the process I'm talking about for draft picks. there is no one person making all the picks on his own. they value a collective agreement on certain players and I'm fairly sure it's not mr. butler this is a guy we want you to turn into an all-pro, but you have no say in the matter. if that's how they are doing it we are in deep chit. if butler has no say as dulac say we are also in deep chit.