QB Draft Class of 04 - No HOFers according to...

Woodson and Sapp on the NFL Network.

I thought the bar that Woodson and Sapp set was way too high. They basically implied that Ben and Eli and Rivers are not HOF worthy because they have not been the best at their position. So if that is true, then Jim Kelly shouldn't be in, either should Moon or even Elway and certainly not Bob Griese. Also I thought Woodson's comparison of Ben and Eli to Jim Plunkett was ridiculous. Jim Plunkett's career outside of the SB wins looks pretty paltry while Eli and especially Ben have put together many good to great regular seasons.

My current guess is Eli will get in as long as his career doesn't crater - the connection to Peyton alone will help him out. Also his SB games were good and he has two SB MVPs.

Ben is borderline and he needs to finish out his career with good numbers to get in - also he probably needs one more SB win or appearance or a couple of deep playoff runs to make it hard for voters to ignore him. Also even though character is not supposed to come into play, I think Ben's past could play into things though he has appeared to be a good guy the last few years.

Rivers will probably fall short unless he has some much better performances in post-season. And it isn't like Rivers hasn't played on some good Charger teams that disappointed in the post season. Rivers does have the better regular season stats.

So what say you? Will Eli, Ben, or Rivers make it? Take off the homer glasses. Just saying Ben wins and SBs is all that matters probably does not align to your average HOF voter. So take into consideration how you think the HOF voters will vote.

 

woodson sapp

 

Ben = lock
Eli = lock

Book it!

Rivers = needs work. The jury is still out but because of his draft status and decent play so far, he's still got a legitimate shot. A single SB win will cement his place in Canton.


Ben and Eli's play from here on out will only determine how quickly they get in. In other words, are they first ballot or do they wait awhile? Here's something to think about, Ben and Eli both have the unfortunate timing of having their careers pretty much run concurrently with 2 of the top 5 QBs to ever play the game. If Brady and Peyton were 10 years older, we'd be celebrating Ben and Eli as two of the best three (Brees) QBs in the league over the past 10 years.

And the comparison to Plunkett is no accident. He's the only HOF eligible QB with 2 SB wins who is NOT in the HOF. This is the reason Fatass is using him as an example. But as said above, Plunkett struggled early in his career and was a journeyman until (lucky for him) Dan Pass the Weenie broke his leg allowing Plunkett to get one last chance to resurrect his career.

Sapp is a tool.

 

Yeah plunkett had a grand totql of 25000 passing yards

 

"And there's an end on't." - Ben Johnson

 

Looking at it analytically, the HOF puts in around 4 or 5 QBs from each decade, I list them below, giving 1/2 to a player who straddled decades:

'70s,4-1/2:Bradshaw, Griese, Fouts(1/2), Namath(1/2), Staubach, Tarkenton (1/2)
'80s, 3-1/2: Elway(1/2), Marino (1/2), Fouts(1/2), Kelly(1/2), Montana, Moon(1/2)
'90s, 5-1/2 :Elway(1/2), Marino (1/2), Kelly(1/2), Aikman, Young, Moon(1/2), Favre(1/2)

The '10s can't really be assessed yet, as half the decade remains, but in the '00s we have:

Peyton (1/2), Favre(1/2), Brady(1/2) as ironclad locks

Brees, Rodgers, McNabb, Eli, Ben, McNair as guys that will get some serious attention. Maybe also Warner to get the other 3 or 4 spots.

On balance, I'd say Ben's chances are better than decent, but not certain.

Get to another SB (win or lose), he's in.
Don't get to another, but put up 4-5 yrs of 25TDs in his 'style', he's in.
Age prematurely and fade by 35, not so much.

 

..

 

I think Ben gets in he has a high winning percentage been to 3 Super Bowls and won 2, he also will own every Steeler passing record by the time he's done. You don't to be the best at your position to get into the HOF, just be one of the best. Rivers will have good stats but no ring he's iffy, I could see Eli getting in because of his last name and those 2 Super Bowl wins over the Patriots. I could see Ben retiring with over 40,000 yards and over 300 TDs that should be a lock.

 

Some people may disagree with me, but I honestly DO believe there is an Anti-Steeler bias, among voters, just because of the # of players we already have in the hall.
Especially from the 70`s.
It`s not fair, and it absolutely should NOT have any effect on more recent Steelers getting in, but I do believe it does.
That said,
I don`t see how they could keep Ben out.
Just based on the fact that he gives our team a chance to win every game he is in.
Early in his career, yes, he was made to be a "game manager", by Cowher, he had a great supporting cast on his side of the ball, and a STILL great defense to help him out.
Anyone who looks at it objectiveley, knows he did not play his best game in his first Superbowl, but he DID help us get there.
Arguably, him and Santonio won us the second Superbowl he was in, although I am ALWAYS hesitant to point to one play in ANY game, as the deciding factor. No matter how late in the game, the play happens, there were always a ton of plays before it... Harrison`s return, comes to mind, in that particular game.
Basically, my case for Ben would be the effort he gives, week in and week out.
He plays thru any kind of pain, and some that his coaches probably should sit him out for.
And in these "latter stages" of his career, he has still put up some incredible numbers, stat-wise.
At the beginning of last year, I was SCREAMING at him, to quit turning the ball over, and blaming him for some of our early losses, but that`s just how he plays the game.
It has rewarded him(and us), more often than it has punished him/us.
ALL the H.O.F. caliber qb`s take chances.
If they didn`t, they wouldn`t be in the H.O.F.
Marino, MIGHT be the only exception to that rule... I don`t know his stats, but I remember him as being pretty accurate with the ball. High completion, to INT ratio...But, he NEVER won the Lombardi!
I think Ben deserves to be in the Hall, just based on his leadership, and his effort to win every game.
Even, since he has lost Ward, and Bus, and Porter, and... most of the team he came into the league with.
You CAN NOT argue that he hasn`t had an overwhelmingly positive impact on our team`s winning percentage.
Shouldn` that be the bottom line criteria for voting a player into the hall?
That they made their team much better than they would have been without them?
They gave their all, and went "above and beyond" the effort/results, that an "average" player would?"
If so, I don`t see how you could keep Ben out, Or Hines Ward, for that matter, or Jerome Bettis...
But the Bus is still waiting, due to???
And some of the past greats...
GO STEELERS!

 

I don't know, Ben to me is a shoo-in but to the rest of the football world, he isn't liked very much, probably because of his past off field stuff. I look at the Bus, he had it all as a running back, plus Super Bowl rings and he still is not in, hard to figure, probably because of the small market he played in. I think where you play has a lot to do with it, Eli will get in on the first ballot, two SB rings, two MVP's, he plays in the sports capital of the world with all the press he needs.....I look at the last Steelers SB win where Ben was spectacular and still was not the MVP, not because of his play but because the press didn't like him because of his past troubles. Maybe off field problems isn't supposed to have anything to do with the vote but it does and will when it comes time for Ben to be considered..

 

Ben will be a lock after he dominates this season and leads the Steelers to a 7th Superbowl title and is both MVP of the league and the Superbowl.

Eli will get in on Peytons coat tails. The elder Manning brother will probably make campaign commercials for it.

Rivers will have more children that he can take to Cooperstown as visitors so they can all admire what daddy couldn't achieve.

 

It might be the old b&g glasses, but I just don't see how Rivers even gets mentioned in the conversation with the other two.

(Well, obviously I see because of the draft year etc., but you know what I mean - we don't have debates about whether Stan Humphries, Jim Everett or Bernie Kosar should get in, after all.)

 

When it's all said and done, Ben's in. He changed the way the position's played and that in turn has effected and is affecting how they draft.

Eli is still pending and @ this point, a long shot.

 

Your assessment is pretty much where I am, though Steel_Elvis made a really good point on how bad some of Eli's seasons have been. I personally think Eli is still a very good QB and I think he actually has more moxie than his big brother, but he has had some pretty atrocious games and interceptions over the years. I give a little more credence to Rivers than you probably and really believe one or two great playoff runs could elevate his status - but then again he hasn't really had one yet.

I am not a voter, but I always look at credentials as a three legged stool in terms of criteria for a QB. One is how you perform overall in the regular season, second is how you perform in the post season, and third is really something more subjective - basically I view it as intangibles. To me Ben and Eli are far above most QBs including Peyton for the second and third. We all know Eli and Ben have had some very special moments in the post season, they have been winners and they have also made plenty of big plays along the way. In terms of intangibles Ben's style of play has been somewhat revolutionary and Eli's vanquishing of the Patriots is legendary stuff. It is the first one where they both need some work.

I know a lot of people think there is an anti-Steeler bias, but I think that is starting to recede some as we get multiple decades past the 70's Steelers. I do think anti-Steelers bias has hurt LC Greenwood, Donnie Shell, and probably Dermonti Dawson. But I don't think it is hurting Bettis that much. For Bettis, it has more to do with him going up against some really good classes, for example this past year guys like Walter Jones and Derrick Brooks entering the mix created an extra hurdle for Bettis because those are first ballot HOFers. Bettis is going to get in - probably this upcoming year. So I don't think Ben has to ward of Steeler bias so much as he needs to do some things that make him a no doubter and that is either another ring (w/hopefully a good SB performance) or a steady combination of 5-6 good and great seasons where he simply piles up stats that cannot be ignored.