The lethal combination of Tomlin and Rooney

FWIW, I'm hoping that this is the last year we have to keep playing the greatest hits on the "Tomlin vs. Cowher" arguments. Seems like we're all just trying to get it in one last time for old time's sake.



I'm excited for the change here. I think it will probably lead to a worse result than last year. But I also think we had a lot of things break right last year.

 

Winning the super bowl is very hard.It took 20 years for Andy Reid,Kyle Shanahan is still without one,Marv Levy did not win a single one despite 4 super bowl berth and I can name several other examples

But winning a playoff game look harder in the last 9 seasons....

 

**** off!

 

I don't care when was the last time he played a playoff game without turning the ball over .

 

That doesn't stop you from glazing him like he's Chuck Noll .

 

Sorry it came off that way. ETA: especially "biased" was taken to mean "<insert something here>__ist". I meant "biased" as defined by Merriam-Webster "exhibited or characterized by unreasoned judgement". Because I think the data pretty clearly shows they are similar.

Also in the edit (not going to write this again...all stuff in italics is edited to add): I do (obviously I think?) believe the my opinion is the superior opinion to have. Otherwise, I would hold a different opinion (which I would believe was superior). I think when you look at the data, they are close to each other. Again...I think it's fair to say either is the better coach. The data can be sliced in different way to make either look better. But I don't think the data can say that one is a lot better than the other. That feeling one is much better than the other would be based on more subjective or emotional criteria (which is how I would define "unreasoned judgement" above).

I think the comment I made is supported by the data. Which is why I think it's the superior opinion

That it's reasonable to either favor one.

But pretending there's a large difference is probably driven by emotion. Which is probably not surprising since "fan" is short for "fanatic". We all do it...it might be why I think Ben is clearly better than Brees. I have lots of data that confirms my belief, but I think when we're emotional about stuff (and I'm emotional about the Steelers), it's sometimes hard to really know if I had the belief before the data, or the data before the belief. Which is why I'm still sorry in the first line even if the word "biased" wasn't taken to mean "prejudiced" or whatever.

I think that's pretty true.

Re: non-losing seasons. I think this is mostly a trivia question. But it is pretty impressive. So impressive that even a very good coach like Cowher didn't do it even though he coached for 4 fewer seasons (that's ~ 26% of Cowher's total time as HC). I agree that it would be less impressive if Tomlin only did it with Ben. But one of those seasons was mostly Mason/Duck/Mason, with a small bit of Ben at the beginning. I don't remember every starting QB combination Cowher had, but I don't think he ever had QBs that bad. I'm also not sure he had QBs as bad as the Mitch/Kenny or the Kenny/Mitch/Mason seasons. But at the end of the day, not having losing seasons isn't really the metric for what makes a coach great.

And I don't think Tomlin was a great coach.

I also don't think Cowher was a great coach.

I wouldn't put either in the Hall.

The selection committee already disagreed with me on Cowher.

I won't be surprised if they disagree re: Tomlin too. Especially since a big part of this is that it's a popularity contest with the sports media folks...and I get the feeling they like Tomlin. Just like I think being part of sports media really helped Cowher get in. I think losing the popularity contest is why BB didn't get in on the 1st ballot (which he obviously deserves...and I think Tomlin doesn't - on any ballot). I also think it's the reason Ben is (or at least should be) worried about the 1st ballot. And it will be ridiculous if he misses.

If you want to look at playoff success/failure...I also think that there should be some metric that looks at playoff success/failure relative to regular season seeding. Because I think your regular season seeding is probably a better metric for team talent relative to the league than a single-elimination tournament. NFL seasons are still short relative to every other sport, so we never really have large samples, but regular season record is probably the closest thing we have to "true" talent(+coaching) relative to the rest of the league.

Cowher did more in the playoffs. But he also had higher seeded teams. AND he also won with a 6th seed. Which had never been done before that.

I don't think we ever had a 1 seed with Tomlin. And I think we only had one 1st round bye.

Again...I don't really think one is a better coach than another. In the grand scheme of things, I think the data says they're in the same tier.

Both very good coaches. I don't think either is a great coach who did anything revolutionary (i.e. "can't tell the story of the league without the coach"). And I think that should be the bar for the Hall (e.g., Bill Walsh inventing / popularizing the west coast offense).

To me the only coach we've had who deserves to be in the hall when I was really following the team by that metric is Dick LeBeau re: the zone blitz defense. I guess technically Noll too, since I was watching (but not deeply following) the team for the last couple years of his tenure.

 

I wonder if we looked at playoff games across Cowher's and then Tomlin's tenure if we find that any difference in how frequently different teams win playoff games in the AFC?

I don't know the answer to this question.

But I know that when I was looking at something somewhat similar before I got to this site that before last season in the recent AFC: Mahomes, Allen, Lamar, Burrows, and Stroud (who maybe doesn't fit in this conversation) had only lost games to each other in the AFC side of the playoffs (maybe outside of their first playoff experiences).

This model broke down this year becuase it looks like we got two more QBs in the conference who look like they could end up being very good in Nix and Maye (F-the Pats).

 

His last playoff game against the Chiefs he didn't turn the ball over.

 

One measure of the sameness of these two coaches is the Steelers draft position during their careers. Overall, Cowher drafted earlier than Tomlin but not by much. In fact it's pretty remarkable how similar they were.




My other comment on this subject is the QBs in the AFC during their tenures. The AFC during much of Tomlin's time had Brady and then Mahomes with dominating teams. Cowher had Manning (4 SB), and Elway (a handful of seasons) and a collection of QBs that got hot at the right moment (Steelers O'Donnell a good example).

 

His last game of his career....But I still prefer his jaguars game

 

I know right! And you can tell by the lack of interest in the thread just what everybody else thinks too.

 

I think it's settled. The pro-popcorn faction has lost. The anti-popcorn faction has won.

 

Very eloquent

 

Thanks Bubba.

I think the draft position data is an interesting idea. Again basically showing that they're the same.

I think because they were molded and judged by the same business model.

Per PFF, manning played 1/2 of his seasons when Cowher was coach, the other half when Tomlin was coach. He wasn't the same QB for all of his years in Denver. But for the 8 years he played when Tomlin coached (not including the lost season in 2011), Manning had 7x PBs, 4x team APs, and 3x NFL MVP awards. That's as many PBs as Ben had over his entire career. And Ben was never a 1st or 2nd team AP. NEver placed in MVP voting.

Of course, they both had to deal with Brady too. Cowher for 6 years as a starter. Tomlin for 13 as a starter (doesn't include the TB years where he was out of the AFC). Brady was very good in both of these stretches. But most of his individual awards came after Cowher retired (he'd been to many probowls and was an AP2 once when Cowher was here).

My guess (without doing the math) is that playoff wins when AFC playoffs across Cowher's career were more evenly distributed among teams than they were when Tomlin was our HC. Because of the QB quality in the AFC.

 

I could be wrong, but I don't think Cowher let Ben throw all that much in the first quarter.

There are games that are notable exceptions (which is probably why the worked).

But my guess is if we looked at average number of 1st Q passes from Ben under Cowher and Tomlin, we'd see a noticeable difference.

I'd also be interested to see 1st Q points scored with Ben+Cowher and Ben+Tomlin. I don't know the answer here. But my recollection is that the offense was much more open under Tomlin (especially when we had Arians) that this would favor Tomlin. Probably more turnovers in the 1st Q under Tomlin too. Because that's who Ben was. More attempts == more beautiful plays & more terrible plays. He was his generation's Favre (better than Favre IMO, but I'm not unbiased).

 

I think we were something like 3rd best in the Tomlin era? I think behind NE and GB? Maybe that changed over the Kenny/Canada part of Tomlin's tenure?

Anyone arguing that Cowher was a bad coach is wrong.

Just like anyone arguing that Tomlin was a bad coach is wrong.

They were both well above average.

 

Thank you

 

I don't care much of the pass attempts but in 2004,Ben had 6 TD in the first quarter(QB rating of 104)in 13 games and in 2005,it was even better,he had 8 TD and QB rating of 144 and it don't include the playoffs!

He had also over 10 yards per pass attempts in both years,who is crazy!

For the PPG under Cowher vs Tomlin in the first quarter,the steelers were the best first quarter scoring team in both 2004 and 2005 when he had Ben....Rarely the steelers were in the top 10 under Tomlin with 2016 as exception

In 2004

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/1st-quarter-points-per-game?date=2005-02-07

in 2005

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/1st-quarter-points-per-game?date=2006-02-06

It was very important for the steelers to have fast start under Cowher since they were build to play cowherball with the lead.They had way more urgency

 

I believe in my heart, and my mind, that while we may struggle at first to adapt to all new everything, by the mid-way point we will see a better team than we have seen for a long time. There were just too many fundamental problems which all pointed to a poor coaching staff.

 

I don't think it'll be the last year but the frequency will die down. Especially if we start winning under the new regime. But Tomlin and Cowher were Steelers head coaches for VERY long periods of time. As was Noll. There will be arguments about their careers eternally.

I'm also excited for the change. Nineteen years is just too long IMO, unless you're still winning playoff games in recent history.

 

We shall see but there is certainly reason for hope

But I do most certainly expect growing pains

If you truly are new here just wait until the first loss and the trolls currently hiding in a big litter box will come out en mass ***** and moan and hi five each other in their glory

Whacking them is encouraged

 

There is reason for hope. It could all come crumbling down pretty quickly if fragile old man Rodgers goes down. BUT, it could also reveal a young QB in waiting, ready to shine. I'm just thankful that we have all new thinking at the coaching level. I don't expect to watch a repeat of the former coaching strategy.

 

I would whine and moan less if we lost with a young QB (like Howard or Allar) learning the job. But with Rodgers... the pitchforks will be out in full force. It's a given.