Higher in the all-time list:Brees vs Ben?

I'd like to see how all that discipline, being more studious, and dependability would do behind a **** offensive line when it's 8 degrees outside in snow and 30 mph winds in Baltimore and New England and facing real defenses on a regular basis?

Something tells me he wouldn't be as dependable as you think, and his numbers sure as $hit wouldn't look as good. I guess that means he wouldn't win as many individual awards either, but hey....

Payton did a lot of heavy lifting with the Saints and made Brees a great quarterback in his system. Brees was not a great player until he played for Payton. He was very average his first five seasons in the NFL. I guess he wasn't studious, disciplined, conscientious, and dependable those first five years huh? Sure sounds like coaching and an offensive system had a lot to do with his success.

Payton is now making Bo Nix look like he's pretty good. It's what great offensive head coaches do.

Brees was a great player, but there are a lot of reasons why he had a lot of help putting up big numbers.

The Vikings being his daddy in the playoffs doesn't help your argument. There really weren't dominant teams in the NFC stopping the Saints from having more success. Ben and the Steelers were going to and winning Super Bowls playing in the same conference as the dominant Patriots teams with Brady and Peyton Manning in Indianapolis. The team that got rid of Drew Brees for Philip Rivers never got it done because they couldn't hack it in the conference because of the other guys they had to go through. Ben was one of those guys. So while Ben was getting it done and leading his team to championships in a historically strong AFC against what everyone thinks are two of the best quarterbacks to ever play the game, Brees could only get to one Super Bowl in a gettable conference where the Seahawks were probably the best team over a number of years, but Brees could not get past some very beatable teams in the NFC while having some of his strongest teams. Same for Rodgers with some very good teams. He also only made it to one Super Bowl. They underachieved in the playoffs.

 

You are forgetting the other half of the team. Imagine Roethlisberger playing with a bottom defense for half his career. Steelers playoff record the last decade tells you it doesn't always fall on the QB in the post season.

A more interesting question is how Roethlisberger would have looked in a Payton offense?

 

You are leaving off playing indoors, and playing outside.
You honestly think throwing the ball with no wind, no rain, and no cold is the same??
Again there are years Brees played when he didn't play more than 2 games a year outside, and that was in Tampa, and Carolina.
The best I can tell he played almost 80% of his games indoors. No freaking way that doesn't make a difference in passing

 

What does that have to do with playing with a lousy defense?

 

What does a lousy Defense have to do with saying Brees is better than Ben??
I do believe that the year the Saints actually won a SB they lead the league in turnovers on D. You know the thing that many on here told me isn't a big deal

 

I hate these arguments because I always end up sounding like I am trashing a genuinely great player like Brees. I think Brees was awesome. I just also think that Ben was awesome in a different way and under very different circumstances, conditions, and playing parameters.

We have some people here talking about stats and consistent individual greatness. That happens on one side of the ball.....the offensive side of the ball. The system a quarterback plays in, the coach, the conditions he plays in, the quality of the fields they play on, the footing receivers have, the wind and weather that affects the flight of the football.......it all matters. It is something that only happens on offense.

People can't talk about poor Brees and playing with bad defenses being the reason he didn't win more big games, and then anoint his greatness and point at his big numbers and say they weren't influenced and inflated because of the style they played while screaming that the reason Ben won more is because he had better defenses.

My comments explain why Ben's numbers weren't as good on the offensive side of the ball, but winning matters.

For years and years, the Steelers loved to play defense, run the ball, and have Ben make a play on third downs to continue drives. When all else failed, he would win the game with a last minute drive. He was as good or better at that as any quarterback that ever played. His ability to make plays in the 2-minute drill was elite. Like all-time great elite.

That wasn't the defense making those plays to win all those games late. That was the quarterback doing whatever it took to win the game. Brees was not in the same league as Ben with the last minute scores and comeback wins late. Ben had more of those wins, and he did it in less years than Brees and people here claim he did it as an inferior quarterback to Brees. How could Brees be the better player, but he couldn't put the big drive together to win more big games than Ben in an inferior conference for much of his career and in a better offense?

Nobody knows exactly how Ben would have played in Payton's offense, but my money would be on him being very successful.

In your quote above, you talk about the Steelers playoff record. You also talk about Brees' defenses compared to Ben's defenses. Have you seen the point totals that the Steelers have been allowing in the last decade with Ben? The Steelers defense has been getting paid huge money, putting up great regular season stats, and then underachieving in the playoffs. So maybe Ben didn't have the better defenses.

Brees' defense points allowed in the playoffs with the Chargers and the Saints:

Chargers: 20(one playoff game in 2004) Saints: 24, 39, 19, 28, 17, 41, 28, 36, 24, 23, 26, 29, 14, 26, 26, 9, 30

Drew Brees' defenses allowed opponents 25.5 points per game.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sdg/playoffs.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nor/playoffs.htm


Ben's defense points allowed in the playoffs with the Steelers:

17, 41, 17, 18, 17, 10, 31, 24, 14, 23, 24, 19, 31, 29, 30, 16, 23, 12, 16, 36, 45, 48, 42

Ben's defenses allowed opponents 25.35 points per game. (rounded up from 25.3478)

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/playoffs.htm

So Brees had to overcome the insurmountable 0.15 points per game than Ben did over their entire playoff careers.

You guys want stats? There are your stats. The entire point about Ben playing with far superior defenses in the playoffs is pretty much a myth based on the performance of the defenses in the playoffs and the average points allowed.

In leading his teams to 18 playoff games, Brees' defenses allowed 30 points or more 3 times.

in leading his team to 23 playoff games, Ben's defenses allowed 30 points or more 8 times.

It looks like Brees' defenses have overperformed in the playoffs.

It looks like Ben's defenses have underperformed more in the playoffs.

 

The question I was answering was why didn't Brees go to more post season games.

 

Roethlisberger was 0-8 when the defense allowed that 25+ pts in the playoffs. Brees was 3-7.

 

My bad then, and I apologize my friend

 

Ben was actually 0-9 in those games when the opponent scored 25 or more points. In those 9 losses, the Steelers defense allowed an average of 37 points. Who is winning a bunch of those games needing to score 37 points on average in the AFC against the defenses they play and in the weather most of those games are played? Maybe you can name them?

And Brees only needed to score more than 30 points 3 times in 18 games. Brees was also 0-5 when his opponents scored 29 points or more having high powered offenses and often playing in great weather or in a dome.

So what's your point? Brees was supposed to be a dominant player far superior to Ben. That's what you're arguing, isn't it?

Name the powerhouse teams keeping Brees from making more Super Bowls.

 

Not my argument at all. Never used 'dominant ' to describe Brees. Confusing me with another poster?

 

Maybe? I know AskQuestionsLater uses that description. You seemed to be arguing his points, so I thought that's where you were coming from. If not, I'm sorry about that.

You seem to be claiming that Ben played with better defenses, yet I showed you that both Brees' and Ben's defenses performed almost identically in the playoffs in points allowed with a difference of only .15 points per game.

So what are you saying? Do you think Brees is the better quarterback?