Higher in the all-time list:Brees vs Ben?

Yeah, stats matter... but I believe Roethlisberger would trade his gawdy stats during the Haley years, for pedestrian, average stats and a couple more Lombardi trophies.

 

It's not close. Cumulative era adjusted QB ratings based on EPA and normalized against each season's NFL averages.




And Brees with by far the worst defenses through his career;

 

Dang, I hear a puppy dog yapping

 

Yeah , and not a one counts without the team behind them to help it happen, and if it was just about what a person did Joe Burrow woul have won a MVP 2 , or 3 years ago when he threw the most tds, had the most yards, and had the most overall tds, but he didn't because the team wasn't good, so team award, or when Lamar Jackson won it last time, and 5 other Qbs had just as many overall yards , or more than him, and just as many , or more yards, He won because his team had more wins, again a team accomplishment.

 

And it's not just having a good coordinator on the other side of the ball.

My favorite fact on this is that every post-70s SB we went to had LeBeau as a DC even though both Cowher and Tomlin were more defensively minded. We still got a significant benefit from having a genius at DC even though we had defensive coaches.

 

If he wasn't a QB, this argument would be stronger.

But QB success is strongly tied to winning SBs.

It's not really fair to do this for any other position. But QBs are the most important thing on any football team. So for better or worse, team success is a huge metric for QBs.

And Ben is significantly better than Brees here. Two SB wins to one. Three appearances to one. Despite being in the conference that had better QBs throughout both of their careers.

Both of these QBs are very good and deserving of being in the Hall of Fame.

Also...still no comment on how your argument concludes that Reed > Troy?

 

Roethlisberger doesn't win SB XLIII without that historic defense. In fact he probably doesn't get to the postseason. He was bad in stretches, 17TDs, 15 INTs, completing <60% of passes, second worst season QB rating of his career.

Team win.

 

false.. if this was the case Ben would’ve ran more QB sneaks instead of having that stupid pissing contest with Haley.

 

Yep.

Even if you completely throw the Cowher SB out, Ben still went to a 2nd SB where Brees didn't.

And while I don't really follow the Saints, I'd imagine that there were pivotal moments in that SB run where players who were not Brees were critically important to whether or not they won or lost the game.

Here's the play by play for their closest game in the playoffs that year (NFCC against the Vikings). They won this game by a FG in OT despite winning the turnover battle 5-1.

Plays that stand out:

• Drew Brees pass complete short right to Pierre Thomas for 38 yards, touchdown
• Brett Favre for no gain. Brett Favre fumbles, recovered by Scott Fujita at NOR-10 (tackle by Adrian Peterson
• Brett Favre pass incomplete short middle intended for Sidney Rice is intercepted by Jonathan Vilma at NOR-28 and returned for 3 yards
• Percy Harvin left end for -5 yards (tackle by Will Smith). Percy Harvin fumbles (forced by Will Smith), recovered by Remi Ayodele at MIN-12 and returned for 5 yards (tackle by Jeff Dugan)
• Brett Favre pass complete short middle to Bernard Berrian for 8 yards (tackle by Tracy Porter). Bernard Berrian fumbles (forced by Tracy Porter), recovered by Jonathan Vilma at NOR-5 (tackle by Visanthe Shiancoe)
• Brett Favre pass incomplete deep middle intended for Sidney Rice is intercepted by Tracy Porter at NOR-22 and returned for 26 yards

So in this game, the Saints defense (which based on your comments above, I assume was probably ****ty in the regular season) got them 5 turnovers! Despite that, the game went to OT tied 28-28. On the first possession of OT, Pierre Thomas returns the kickoff 40 yards. The Saints kick the FG to win (properly sudden death back then).

So if we are going to be taking away SBs because the QB needed the D to carry the day...neither of these guys gets credit for a SB. And it's likely that no QB gets credit for one.

This was a game where they likely get blown out without the defense getting them 5 turnovers! Sounds like a team win IMO.

Here's the turnover battle in the three playoff games

• Division vs. ARI: 2-0
• NFCC vs. MIN: 5-1
• SB vs. IND: 1-0

I'd say that NOR's D generating 8 turnovers in 3 playoff games was a big part of them winning the SB. Maybe they were bad in the regular season, but it looks like they peaked at the right time.

In 2005, we generated 8 turnovers in 4 playoff games (2+0+4+2). Should have been 9, but the refs screwed Troy out of a beautiful pick.

In 2008, we generated 8 turnovers in 3 games (2+4+2), including maybe the most beautiful defensive play in NFL history (per Dick LeBeau). This defense was excellent. And got us the exact same number of turnovers as the Saint's D got Brees in his SB run. In the same number of games. And almost the same distribution. But it's a good thing for the Saints that they didn't get the same distribution. Because they probably lose against the Vikings if they "only" get 4 turnovers.

Re: Stats in a playoff run. The "reductio ad absurdum" version of this argument is that if we look at Flacco's stats in his SB run they are more impressive than both Ben and Brees. And I don't even think Rats fans would take Flacco in that 3-way choice.

Here's the comparison of their SB runs. I bolded the values of each stat that's the for each QB in their SB run. Flacco is best in all of these metrics.

Flacco

• 4 games: 1140 yards (highest in y/game too), 11 TDs (higher TD/game too) 8.7 TD%), 0 INT (tied with Brees, Ben throws picks), 9.0 Y/A!, 10.8 AY/A!

Brees

• 3 games: 732 yards, 8 TDs (7.8%), 0 INT, 7.2 Y/A, 8.7 AY/A

Ben

• 4 games: 803 yards, 7 TD (7.5%), 3 INT (3.2 INT%), 8.6 Y/A, 8.7 AY/A
• 3 games: 692 yards, 3 TD (3.4%), 1 INT (1.1%), 7.8 Y/A, 7.9 AY/A)

Again, my guess is that if you go to any owner in the league and say "would you rather have a QB who gets more yards / TDs / individual accolades or one who wins you more championships?" they are taking the Ben side of the argument here. Same with every fan base IMO.

 

He was bad in the middle of the season when he had 1 TD-8 INT during 3 game in a row against the giants,redskins and colts.The steelers were 1-2 in those games.But he was solid for the rest of the year with a very poor offensive line.....And the defense were not historic come playoffs time,at least not against the chargers and cardinals.....Fitzgerald is still running....

 

So again, Super Bowls are not an individual award. You are correct that a player can be tied to those accomplishments as a part of their legacy but that doesn't explain their entire careers. Brady isn't simply defined by his rings. Rodgers isn't simply defined by his freakish arm talent. Johnny Unitas isn't simply defined by one game. The list goes on and one.



As for the bolded?! You never asked. If you did, please point out when.

 

Stats don't tell the whole story. How dominant a player is game after game does. Me and you can both agree that Big Ben was inconsistent in that area; incredible highs but incredible lows as well.


Brees?! Far too many peaks and few valleys.

 

By virtue of this argument then; 2021 TJ Watt doesn't deserve the DPOY even though he was the singular driving force of that entire team. 2025 Myles Garrett is the same. Add in 2024 SaQuon Barkley no less.


As for the individual aspect, again, I said Super Bowls by themselves cannot be the deciding factor. That award is team based for it takes the team to win the award. I also have stated that Super Bowls do help but not nearly as much as the aforementioned achievements by the player.


So again, Big Ben has Brees beat in ring count but Brees destroys Big Ben in every other accomplishment when comparing the two.

 

Who am I drafting?! Between the two?! Brees for me.


More disciplined. More studious. More dependable. As me, you, and even @Steel_Elvis would all agree on, Big Ben was never the most studious, conscientious, disciplined QB. Not just us either. Teammates and coaches have said so as well. Sure, Big Ben had the far superior physical talent than Brees but talent alone only gets you so far. Have to have the drive, desire and perseverance to be great. Big Ben did just enough whereas Brees poured his existence into his craft. That is something that coaches simply cannot install or coach; no matter who it is.


As I said, Brees accomplished far more with far less. That doesn't happen by accident. Dome or not, Brees' accomplishments what they are. Using hypotheticals when their careers have already been written is unfair to both. This also accounts for which coaches they played with; yet again an example of cherry picking as neither can control that aspect either.


In short?! A QB needs to have talent yes but also the desire, discipline and perseverance to be great to match. That difference matters. Big Ben and Drew Brees' careers reflect this. Big Ben did just enough while Brees hard carried New Orleans.

 

My posts get kind of long...sorry for that.

Page 5 about half way down. But also in the quote below so you don't have to hunt for it.

There's more before what's quoted here, but this was the comparison stats wise.

Since now you've also clarified that you're also talking about individual awards, I've added them below. It's not good for your avatar (and my favorite player).

• Troy: 8x PB, 4x AP1, 1x DPOY
• Reed: 9x PB, 5x A1, 1x DPOY

Reed wins there too...

If your argument remains undefeated, you must believe that Reed > Troy.

I disagree with you on both Troy and Ben. But as you said above, maybe it's just my bias talking.

But those are the two most unbelievable and entertaining players I've ever seen play in the NFL.

Guys that were totally unique, but leaned into what made them special and became elite in their primes.

 

How was Brees dominant? I don't even think Ben was dominant. Dominance means that you dominate your opposition. Not just that you rack up stats.

I think you're basing your entire argument on the fact that Brees played in a dome and Ben played outside in the winter.

This is the exact same kind of thinking that led the Browns to sign the worst contract in NFL history. Because a QB in a dome ran up good stats playing in a dome (mostly while playing from behind..which is admittedly different than Brees).

 

I never said they didn't get, or deserve it, I said its not a individual award. How many sack do You think TJ , or anyone would get if everyone else on the D sucked??
Its not coincidence that M. Garrett's D was also pretty dang good.
Again if MVPs , and such are actual individual awards then why didn't Burrow win the MVP when he led the league in Passing TDs, and overall yards, and overall TDs??
If You say because they didn't win enough games well then I rest my case, because the TEAM wasn't good enough.

 

Where a player is drafted doesn't always tell the story. How they forge their own career does. I do agree though we should agree to disagree on this.


As I said, our definitions differ.