Billy B...not 1st Ballot HoF. Will Ben also get screwed over?

One of the few times in his career that Peter ever said something that made sense.

Super Bowl Rings are awarded to the team; not an individual. Yes, Franchise QBs make that journey to get there easier but the rest of the team is what allows the journey to be completed. Takes two to tango.

 

It is not merely a judgment of awards and stats though. The whole aspect to determine a First Ballot HOF versus one that isn't comes down to sustained dominance. Peyton had that in spades for much of his career. Same goes with Aaron Rodgers.

 

Given what just happened to Belichick, are we sure about Brady now?!

Never say never.

 

well they were both super bowl MVP’s but i give Swann’s overall performance the edge including catches with a higher degree of difficulty.

 

Top 10 QB ever?!


Vehemently disagree here.


We are talking about the 100+ years of the NFL. There were great QBs who came before Big Ben. Of those QBs?! Sammy Baugh, Sonny Jurgensen, Norm Van Brocklin and last but not least, Johnny Unitas. All four were either the best or very best for a far longer stretch of their careers and were pioneers of the position; doubly so in Unitas' case.


Until the likes of Dan Marino and John Elway came into the NFL, Johnny Unitas was largely hailed as the greatest QB ever to play.

 

Fair enough.


Santonio's catch was needed to win. Big Ben made one of the greatest throws in Super Bowl History. That said, for any pass to matter, the Wideout has to catch it.

 

Brees was voted to more pro bowls. Sure. Bens playoff record is 13-10. Drew’s is 9-9. I call that more sustained dominance.

 

So again, records don't always tell the whole story. There are a lot of factors that have to be accounted for when it comes to records for QBs. Brees never had many, if any, top flight defenses.


Big Ben?! From 2004 to 2011, Pittsburgh was largely a Top Five to Top Three Unit overall. In addition, Big Ben played with a Mt. Rushmore player in the man in my avatar.

 

Ben still led one of the most prolific offenses in the league in the leagues toughest division too. Im just saying hes in the Rodgers, Manning, Brees class. He deserves to be a 1st ballot HOFer too. Thats all.

i just realized you added Rodgers and Manning. Well their playoff records are in the ballpark as Ben’s.

 

Big Ben did lead one of the most prolific Offenses in the NFL that the league hadn't seen in some time. That is true. However, how often was Big Ben dominant during the era of the Killer B's?! Stretches of games for sure but not at a consistent rate.


As for Rodgers and Manning, again, playoff records need to be looked at more closely than just what is given. Both Aaron and Manning fielded Top 5 Defenses very little times; two for Aaron during his Green Bay career and Peyton Manning never having one. Big Ben?!


Again, that run of renegade from 2004 to 2011 was nuts. That team was primed and loaded for Big Ben. If anything, sans his 2005 Playoff run, Big Ben was largely a passenger.

 

Have to disagree. Ben was not a passenger. Far from it. Without Ben that defense gets worn out, sustains injuries, and the players have shorter careers.

 

I did say for the two Super Bowl wins.


As for 2012 to the end of his career, the team was Big Ben's but he was never able to have dominant season after dominant season. Pittsburgh's Defenses though would rank as follows;

• 2012: 1st in Total Defense (yards), 6th in points allowed.
  
• 2013: 12th in Total Defense.
• 2014: 18th in Total Defense.
• 2015: 11th in Points Allowed.
• 2016: 10th in Points Allowed.
• 2017: 7th in Points Allowed, 5th in Total Defense.
• 2018: 6th in Points Allowed.
• 2019: 5th in Points Allowed, 5th in Total Defense.

As I said before and will again, there are a lot of things to unpack when accounting for such rankings. That includes Defensive Rankings. 2014 marked the beginning of the end for Troy but the arrival of another HOF Player in Cam Heyward. 2015-2017 right before his injury were the Ryan Shazier years; a player who was well on his way of being special prior to the injury. 2017 saw the Steelers draft a Mt. Rushmore 3-4 Rush Backer in T.J. Watt. 2019 he didn't play but a quasi borderline HOF Talent in Minkah Fitzpatrick came into the mix when he got back. 2020 was when everything was going well... until he hurt his elbow. If anything, that injury to his elbow marked the beginning of the end for Big Ben. Even at the very end of his career, for both 2020 and 2021, Pittsburgh finished in the following categories;




2020 Defensive Performance (Rank: 3rd Overall)

• Total Defense: 1st in the NFL, allowing just 312.0 yards per game.
• Scoring Defense: 3rd in the NFL, allowing 19.5 points per game.
• Key Stats: Led the league in sacks and maintained a strong passing defense.

2021 Defensive Performance (Rank: 24th Overall)

• Total Defense: 24th in the NFL, allowing 361.1 yards per game.
• Scoring Defense: 20th in the NFL, allowing 23.4 points per game.
• Key Stats: Struggled significantly against the run, ranking 32nd in the league in rushing yards allowed per game

In short?! Big Ben almost never played with a team that had a bad defensive season. Never. Coincidentally enough, neither did Tom Brady. That said, Tom Brady had far greater stretches of dominance than Big Ben could have ever hoped for. Even if wanting to remove Brady for the sake of discussion, Aaron Rodgers did far more with far less; same goes for Brees and doubly so for Manning.

 

All that and yet you fail to mention the worst stretch of playoff defense in the history of the NFL near the end of Ben's career.

#43 was a shadow of his former self after 2011. He was nowhere near the player he was previously. He wasn't carrying the team.

Who are the offensive geniuses that coached Ben over his career? Where were the innovative offenses he played in?

Where was his offensive-minded head coach?

Ben played on a team that wanted to feature the running game and play defense, but the defense didn't play to their regular season numbers when it mattered, yet Ben got to 3 Super Bowls and won 2 of them.

Over Ben's entire career, the Steelers' playoff opponents averaged 25.35 points per game.

Over P Manning's entire career, the Colts' playoff opponents averaged 23.04 point per game.

Over Drew Brees' entire career, the Chargers/Saints playoff opponents averaged 25.22 points per game.

Over Aaron Rodgers' entire career, the Packers/Jets/Steelers playoff opponents averaged 26.14 points per game.

So with all those great Steelers' defenses you keep talking about, it appears that they haven't really lived up to the billing in the playoffs. Peyton Manning and Drew Brees have had to overcome less points by their opponents in the playoffs. Only Rodgers has had to score more points on average in the playoffs to win games. Manning's defenses allowed the fewest points of these four quarterbacks as they allowed over 2 less points per game, yet he struggled to get wins in the playoffs. Ben has led his teams to more playoff success than Manning and Brees while his defense has given up more points per game.

Peyton Manning won a Super Bowl in Denver being dragged to the finish line by his team. He was terrible, yet won a Super Bowl as the Broncos showed what it really looks like to have a dominant defense that carries a team and a quarterback in the playoffs and to a championship. No mention of that, but you're saying Ben didn't play well in the Super Bowl after he made it there in only his second season in the NFL? Come on man.

I am not claiming that Ben is the greatest quarterback of all time. I am simply showing that when things mattered at the end of games, he was money. All the talk of being carried by great defenses is bull$hit. Regular season defensive stats mean nothing if a defense doesn't play well in the playoffs. Ben has had many below average offensive lines and an underperforming defense in the playoffs. That has been a reality in Pittsburgh for a long time, and not enough people want to acknowledge it as they tell you about all the great defensive players they have had. Coaches keep trying to play a defensive style of football, but the defense hasn't been dominant when it counts. They have been very average overall and downright pathetic in the playoffs later in his career. Then everyone expected Ben to save the day.

 

I think Eli gets in, you can set his whole career aside…he beat the Patriots TWICE in the Super Bowl during the peak of their dynasty, he was a key part of those wins as well.

You can’t understate how huge that was.

 

... mmhmm...

Bit of circular logic here.

I believe it is time we agree to disagree on one aspect; definition of what greatness is.

We have vastly different viewpoints.

 

I strongly doubt that he would have applied this methodology to a player on the Steelers.

He did not vote for Troy. He should have been removed from the selection committee after that.

 

There's no circular logic. Everything I stated is truth and stats to back it up over careers that are close to 20 years.

Look at the splits of quarterbacks over their careers inside vs outside.

But it is time we agree to disagree.

 

AQL, I don't understand why you're going so hard in the paint to discredit BR as a 1st ballot HOF'er

Terry was a first ballot HOF and the debate between who is the greatest steelers QB of all time is very close and anyone who gives TB the nod over Ben is doing so because of the 4 SB wins in the 70s. And we know that 70s dynasty was absolutely loaded with HOF talent around TB. While Ben had talent around him, it doesn't even come close to what steelers had during TBs time with the steelers.

If Terry was a 1st ballot guy then Ben should be as well.

 

Ben gets in. I did not used to think he would have to wait. But he may have to wait for a season or so.

 

Again it falls to the act of contrition. Belichick still maintains that he did nothing wrong and is unapologetic to the point of downright defiance. Brady at least tries to appear that he knows what he did could be construed as wrong and did his penance. So Brady will undoubtedly be a 1st ballot. They are making Belichick wait because of that defiance.

 

I dont think there is any such bias. Every team has similar beefs about "snubs" and the.idea that a Steeler fan complaining.is hilarious in view of the very fact you state.

I think JH deserves it but it is not the strongest case factoring in longevity. Personally I take shorter dominance over longer consistency.

Issue.with Hines is he was never elite level, but very good for a long time. That wins when your cumulative numbers are great but his are not high enough. People talk about.his great blocking.but in today's environment his then legal blocks look dirty. Blocking factors less than biased Steeler fans.think.

Reputation as "dirty" whether "we" see it that way or not unfortunately, might hold.both back. I'm sure.if commish has any say Deebo will have a problem.

 

Then why the hell did it take so long for Donnie Shell to get in? He should have been inducted in the 90's. LC Greenwood? WTH.

DeCastro, Pouncey and Heyward are recent examples of Steelers who should get in but probably won't. All 3 were ALL PROs for multiple seasons, but with no rings. We'll see.

 

1.But Shell IS in regardless the wait. If it was Steeler hatin, he could be left off. But not only did he get in But the franchise had the most inductees (including questionable Cowher) that season.
2. Decastro and Pouncey have TWO AllPros each. The league is literally littered with players with similar credentials not in the Hall.
3. Can we wait til he is retired before complaining Heyward wont get in? He has credentials in excess of anyone we feel was "snubbed" save for maybe...
4. LC- Legit case here. I DO THINK there was "70s" Steeler HOF fatigue, which also made Shell wait. I do think he gets in via sr's. Sadly he won't be alive to see it.

But he is the ONLY real snub of substance today.

Gor the most part, Steeler fans (who lead the league in inductions since 87) whining about snubs is a joke for fans of other teams.

 

Nope.

Following Steelers should either already be in HOF or should be when they are eligible....

LC Greenwood
Greg Lloyd
Carnell Lake
Casey Hampton (the INT return vs Bengals alone should get him into HOF )
Hines Ward
James Harrison
Maurkice Pouncey
David DeCastro
Antonio Brown
Ben Roethlisberger
Cameron Heyward