Ok Rooney Wake Up

Not completely true, within three years of the 96 SB run, every starter on defense was let go/cut in favor of younger players. Net result was several losing seasons between 97 & 2003, which built the core of the Steelers SB teams of 00s.

 

Huh?

They went 10-6, 11-5, 7-9, 6-10, 13-3, 10-5, and then 6-10 and drafted Ben.

I guess there were 2 in a row? But the there was no immediate dismantling and rebuild. There was an age out and an expense out. The normal post SB cycle for every salary cap era SB team.

 

Three losing seasons in that timespan = several losing seasons.

 

Ok.

But there was no directive to tear it down, trade players out, accumulate draft picks and rebuild. Like the various NFL teams we have all seen do that over the last decade plus. Teams that have no interest or intent on winning for 2-3 years as they construct their roster.

The Steelers intended to be competitive and contend every year between 1996 and 2003. Some years they just didn't accomplish that goal. They have never had the goal of entering a season and just enduring it to accumulate draft picks and experience as they rebuild their roster.

 

But unlike today, they also didn't bring in 6-7 guys 30+ to fill such holes.

 

Ok.

We would have to go back and look at each roster. I do not remember the specific sequencing of roster turnover. But there was never a take a year or two off and rebuild mandate from ownership and there never will be.

 

I don’t think anyone wants to fire him today. But after they get pounded Sunday night, they should ABSOLUTELY fire him early next week. And if by some miracle they beat the Ravens on Sunday, they’ll lose 38-10 in the 1st round of the playoffs. For the high percentage of Steeler fans that want to move on from Tomlin, it’s not because of yesterday’s game it’s because of the MANY games like yesterday. How many Steelers fans were texting or calling friends before yesterday’s game saying this game has a Tomlin loss written all over it. We all knew they would play terrible yesterday.
And that is because of Mike Tomlin. That is the culture he has created.

 

Tomlin backers look so dumb at this point I pity them.

 

Billy Martin and the Yankees aside, it's pretty hard to get fired more than one or two times from any team. But if you're actually trying to say any other team would have fired multiple HC's for the same record that's nearly as ridiculous. Forget the rest of the league, you don't even have to go out of our division for an example. Just look at Harbaugh. Basically, he and Tomlin have been the same coach for almost two decades.

Tomlin: 192-114-2 reg season, 8-11 postseason, 7 division titles, 1 SB title
Harbaugh: 180-112 reg season, 13-11 postseason, 6 division titles, 1 SB title

Yeah, he's won 5 more playoff games but I'd also argue he's done less with more, certainly since 2018 when Lamar Jackson joined the league.

Another example is Andy Reid's 13 seasons at Philadelphia with a 130-93 reg season record (lower win % than either MT or Harbaugh), 10-9 postseason record, 6 division titles, and 0 SBs. His contract was not renewed, but he was also inducted into the Eagles Hall of Fame as part of the 75th anniversary team. So no, he wasn't fired 5 or 6 times either.


Winning consistently in the NFL is incredibly tough. Owners, not only the Rooneys, do not like firing coaches with non-losing seasons. To put some numbers on that, in the last ten seasons, there have been 65 head coaches fired in the NFL. Only 5 of those were fired after a non-losing season. That's 7.7% of the time. Even if the Steeler HC was named something other than Tomlin, there's no expectation given the overall NFL stats that the Steelers, or any other team in the NFL, would have changed coaches more than once during the last 18 seasons, much less 5 or 6 times.

 

You say that I am assigning Tomlin powers that you don't believe he has, yet you believe that the Rooneys weren't going to pay Pickens so they told Khan to trade him. So the guy that decides who is on the roster or not and who does their job well enough to stay with the team isn't making decisions....but the Rooneys won't pay Pickens because they think he's trouble.....so they pay another troubled soul in Metcalf over $30 million a year? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Ask anyone close to the team....Mike Tomlin has huge powers within the organization with personnel and all other decisions. Even when Dan Rooney went to Ireland for his political position, he publicly stated that he was going to lean on Mike Tomlin more in his absence. Not the GM or another family member. Mike Tomlin. And Dan was the most hands-on owner of the family.

Dotson may not move the needle with you, but when you consider that the team could have signed him to an affordable contract and had him long term, he would have helped solidify the offensive line sooner and they wouldn't have had to use as many high draft picks on the OL and spend huge bucks on free agent signings like Seumalo. They could have used draft picks in other places to strengthen other areas of the team instead of trying to replace great talent they already had at reasonable cap numbers.

As far as quarterbacks go, Dart or Shough are looking pretty good at this point. Maybe we will find out about our sixth round pick at some point. I just know that Tomlin and Rodgers making goo-goo eyes at each other over the years and him signing here isn't a coincidence. Choosing Russell Wilson over developing Pickett or Fields was another disaster with no future upside.

As for the Canada issue, I can and did document that horror show that happened under the watchful eye of Mike Tomlin for far too many years. It was a complete disaster. I can tell you for a fact that Art Rooney wasn't breaking down tape and telling Tomlin that the offense was a masterclass in offensive creativity, so he better keep Canada.

Maybe the organization doesn't want a rebuild. It's possible. I personally think that if Tomlin approached AR several years ago and suggested it was time, ownership would have been onboard. We have discussed at length how Tomlin puts a vet player on the downslope of his career on the roster nearly every single time over a young player that needs development. It's a coaching trait of his that has always seemed to be front and center of his rosters.

I know you feel like I am bashing Tomlin here, but I am just a believer that Mike Tomlin usually gets what Mike Tomlin wants and always has.

I don't want Tomlin embarrassed and thrown out on the street while we all scream insults at him while throwing rocks at him. I just don't get that crowd and that train of thought. I think he should be thanked for everything he did for the Steelers organization and the fans for so many years, and wish him well in his next move in life which will most likely be very successful. I would like nothing more than to see this team go on a run and shock the world. It's what I am truly hoping happens. It's just difficult to imagine that happening. I think he has been a classy leader and face of this organization for close to two decades and should be respected for his work. It is most likely coming to a close, but his time in Pittsburgh should be celebrated and it should be understood that it is just time for a completely new coaching direction with new ideas because that cycle hits every coach that has ever existed at the highest levels of football if they are in one place long enough.

 

But
We have all kinds of injuries
But
That was PI at end of game
But
NFL suspended our #1? Wr
But
The NFL would rather have Balt vs Pitts as a prime time meaningful game
But we don’t have a #2 wr
Did I miss anything?

 

I was going to say, I've seen a number of Poni's predictions, and it's gotten to the point that if I see Poni's predicted something, I assume the opposite will happen.

 

I don't think anyone will or could develop Pickett or Fields.

 

You may be correct. My point is that Tomlin chose options that were already not very good quarterbacks and they are only going to get older and worse. They were never and are not ever going to be the future of the team, yet that is the path that was taken rather than trying to go young. Even when Pickett was in there, once he got injured he was looking for a reason to move off of Pickett and he decided to roll with Rudolph instead. Every team in the NFL knows what Rudolph is, and it's not a starting QB in the NFL. Again, that's how Tomlin always seems to be drawn to the more known quantity. It's just how he always rolls.

 

I really don’t want to argue about Dotson but you’re making a few mistakes:
McCormick was a fourth round pick. The high draft picks were at OT and not connected to Dotson being on the roster or not.

Dotson and Semalu would be equal in terms of cap hits. So no cap impact there.

All publicly available evidence indicates Tomlin does not have as much unchecked authority as your post seems to describe.

This is not so much a defense of Tomlin. I don’t care if you or anyone else wants him gone or holds a negative opinion of his performance. But the assigning of everything to Tomlin is getting a bit much.

Rooney doesn’t want a rebuild. Full stop. The Steelers have never gone into full blown rebuild mode and youth movement in the almost 40 years I can somewhat remember.

Everyone has a boss.

I am also tired of the Steelers bringing in fantasy football all stars from 6 years ago as third contract free agents. It’s a low percentage strategy.

It’s also a strategy you can roll the dice on because you have cap room by not paying a QB. Especially if you’re willing to move off misevaluations like Thornhill and Slay.

I think they should be signing younger players trying to find the NEXT Thornhill and Slay that other teams missed but that’s a larger tangent.

 

the same movie for too long

 

I don't know how the guy still has defenders.. aside from his lousy playoff record and consistently playing down to opponents.. he's never been good at clock management, challenges, in-game adjustments (especially when facing quality coaches).

 

I was talking about the overall strength of the OL with Dotson there. Dotson would have gotten a much lower contract if he was offered by the Steelers. He didn't put in an All-Pro season until he went to the Rams. He signed the deal after playing the 2023 season for $2.25 million. That's what the Steelers would have paid him if they didn't trade him. With the money they could have saved on Dotson, they wouldn't have had to sign a free agent to play guard and they could have paid an OT if they wanted to....or a free agent at any other position. Once they release a guy, they need to replace his position.

Sorry man, you're way off on this one.

https://www.nfl.com/news/rams-re-signing-guard-kevin-dotson-to-three-year-48m-deal

Once again on Tomlin, you do know that every decision the organization makes is based primarily on how the head coach evaluates the play, upside, quirks, liabilities, mistakes, etc.... of the players they plan on signing, releasing, trading, etc..? The scouting department does scout their own players as well to give input on their value, but you are trying to make it sound like poor Tomlin just has to release, trade, or live with whatever ownership or the GM decides. That isn't the case with a powerful coach that has run a large part of the operation for almost 20 years. You're reaching. This is something that is simply understood by most NFL insiders when talking about established coaches in the NFL.

The Steelers have not done complete rebuilds over the last 55 years because they haven't needed to. They have had a couple bad stretches, but they have always had the resources around their coaches so that they have mostly been able to find success relatively quickly. The coaches have generally been able to retool on the run and get things running well again. When they can no longer do that, the team makes a change at the coaching position. It happens when it doesn't appear the head coach is capable of turning things around and they refuse to give up power. That's how it has usually gone with this franchise. Tomlin's current position points to a reset happening.

Please remember, I am not one of the fans that have been screaming for Mike Tomlin to be fired for 19 years. I love the guy and have supported him for a long time. You also know I have a football background and I evaluate what the team does every season. It is only the last 5 years where Tomlin started to really lose me because I could see that things were not working. I watch film and saw the designs of the schemes on the field that no longer worked...all under his approval. He has lost his way, and his coaching staff was putting out particularly offenses that anybody could see were an inferior design that could not succeed. The head coach signs off on everything. When it goes to the field, it is completely on him. When ex-players are bragging that they know what the Steelers are running on defense and could easily defeat it, the clock is ticking and it has been ticking for a while now.

Tomlin is a great.....great leader of men. The problem is that his philosophies on style of play and his increased influence on the defense, his coaching staff, and the lack of results make everything point to him. His fields the most expensive defense in the NFL and his hands are all over it. They have been a failure in recent years and have been a disaster in the playoffs since the early 2010's. Playoff performance reflects a lot on coaching because that is when all teams custom game plan for their opponents. The Steelers have been getting blown out in those games, and their defenses have been crushed right out of the gate over and over again. That is bad coaching and preparation.

The only way I believe he can be a great coach again is if he simply runs the operation and handles game management on game day, but his OC and DC need to be able to run innovative systems with free reign. I just don't think Tomlin would ever accept those conditions. I could be wrong, but I just don't see it.

 

Dotson would've cost more. Or I am not understanding something. https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/player/_/id/47730/kevin-dotson vs https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/player/_/id/19033/isaac-seumalo

Also Dotson was terrible as a Steeler. Ended up that a change of scenery and style suited him. But to argue that having Dotson excel at Steelers would've changed draft picks is a stretch. They took OTs high not OGs. So you get a 4th round pick back. And I am not sure what quality of OT you could sign for Seumalo's money. Dan Moore, a fairly average OT signed for 2+ times the annual cap hit.

But all this is details that likely only you and I enjoy discussing and debating.

I also think that Tomlin has demonstrated that when he has a QB he has faith in - he authorizes his coordinators to do all the things that people wish was happening now.

Give Mike Tomlin a better than average QB and watch most of the things people complain about change.

Tomlin has adapted the past 7 years to an ugly conservative style of football that allows his undermanned offense to have a puncher's chance. Give the offense a top 15 QB let alone a top 10 and things change. Majority of the Ben R era supports that.

I also fully believe that Tomlin, Rooney, and Khan devise an overall direction prior to each season. The Steelers, as an organization, refuse to take a step back to take a step forward. Given that reality, the things we see each week are what gives them the highest percentage chance of winning each week.

I, for one, hate the strategy and wish they would do many many things differently. But I think the approach extends beyond Tomlin while also including him.

 

I gave the link above on Dotson. The Steelers could have kept him. He was under contract to make $2.25 million in 2023. They traded him to the Rams for next to nothing. The Rams got him for one season for a couple million dollars. They signed Seumalo for $8 million annually.

The Steelers didn't get a fourth round pick for him. They swapped picks.

The Rams got: Dotson, a 2024 fifth round pick, and a 2025 sixth round pick.

The Steelers got: A 2024 fourth round pick and a 2025 fifth round pick.

That means they gave away a future All-Pro player to move up one round on a fifth round pick in 2024, and moved up one round on a sixth round pick in 2025. That's nothing.

The team could have kept him for another season at only $2.25 million dollars. They also could have extended him with a contract for far less than the Rams did if Mike Tomlin and his coaching staff saw the talent in him that was right in front of them for three years. He hadn't gone to the Pro Bowl or been selected as an All-Pro until after the Rams had him for the entire 2023 season. They got an All-Pro for $2.25 million for one year, then signed Dotson to a 3-year $48 million contract.

If the coaching staff could have identified his talents, they could have signed him for much less money. Mike Tomlin was playing him out of his natural position as a right guard and not playing him over players that were not as good as he was. I was high on Dotson coming out of college. He showed some really great play at right tackle, and then he was moved to the left side where he didn't play as well. I could see the talent he had and I posted about that often at the time. How did the coaches not see it? You keep blowing it off like it's nothing, but that is exactly the problem.

You keep saying that Mike Tomlin doesn't have a good roster to work with, yet he has had a couple great players in his hands and didn't know what to do with them. I'm not really sure how you aren't seeing that point unless you are trying not to see it.

With the money they could have saved keeping Dotson and signing him to a less expensive contract, they could have signed an established free agent offensive tackle instead of signing a free agent guard so the entire offensive line would be better and both positions would be covered with quality players. They also would have been able to use fewer high draft picks on the OL.