Will Allen on the Steelers problems in 2012

On a roll? Ha. I thought it was weak as hell but, hey, he's doing what he can to help you save face in the Haley department so I understand your adoration for his run-on posts. I'm just happy he didn't throw up another four-page post condensed into one paragraph.

I appreciate someone who can bring some strong counter-arguments to the game (and I like to read his posts from time to time) but, again, that was weak as hell.

His general point in bringing up our season records from 2007-2009 was to illustrate that nice offensive numbers don't necessarily attribute to a strong season record (I think that's his point anyway -- couldn't tell for sure -- a lot of "Woo Hoos" in caps is his form of satire?). The problem is that we had a winning record in all three of those seasons and won a Super Bowl so, uh . . . yeah. I'll 'Woo-Hoo' the everloving shlt out of a three-year span like that any chance I can (oh, and we made the playoffs and had ANOTHER Super Bowl appearance in the two years he conveniently left out at the end of Arians' tenure).

Even worse, under Haley we didn't have a winning record and missed the playoffs so I'm not sure how I "proved (his) point" when he just destroyed his own.

Strong!

 

LOL! This from a man who said that Wallace would have been more productive had Haley been a better leader. Yeah, you've got much more credibility than BFT, Dick. Wallace was a pathetic diva of a WR and he was all about taking care of little Mikey. I think it was Tomlin Era that pointed out that Wallace played last year not to get hurt because he knew that some idiotic team with an over-covetous owner would break the bank for him. But if only Haley had been a better leader...

It also amazes me at how BA has all of a sudden become the greatest OC in the history of the NFL since he's left Pittsburgh. For the record, Dick, I was not one the people on this message board that was continually calling for the firing of BA. Go back and check it out if you have the time. I was critical at times of his play calling and was frustrated that he allowed Ben to morph into Mr. Sandlot about every game. And as for Haley, I predicted that his hiring would make sense since he was a Pittsburgh guy and had a good relationship with the Rooneys. I think we ought to give him one more year to see what he's able to do with Ben and this offense, don't you? If he's not able to move the needle then the Rooneys will do the right thing I'm sure and find someone who can. They obviously have confidence in Haley's abilities. Time will tell whether or not that confidence is misplaced, DICK.

 

Yeah, I see what you did there. You can go out of your way to call me DICK all you want because you don't like that my view on this is different. That's fine. I think this is the only subject I really differ from you on. I think we see eye-to-eye on most things.

Yeah, I believe a better OC would have gotten more out of his players. That's laughable? Why do we have coaches then? "Hi, what's your name? Mike? You run a 4.4 40? We're going to use you as a possession receiver this year. What's wrong? You like going deep? When you go deep it takes the top off of the defense and opens up the field for the rest of your teammates? Yeah, we're not going to do that and if you don't like it, too bad. We aren't going to be real into a lot of sensitivity. If you are sensitive, this is probably not the best place to be." See Mike Wallace check out for the season. See Anquan Boldin screaming at Haley on the sidelines of a playoff game. See the KC front office throw Haley out as fast as they can. I can't believe you actually like that garbage 'sensitivy' quote. Who enters an already successful team and throws THAT out there? Who opens with THAT?! That moron broke rapport with that Band of Brothers before he even set foot in their locker room. Then didn't utilize them to play to their strengths. He's a fool. A tight knit team in 2011 became a fractured team in 2012 with pretty much the same personnell except for one key change. Hmmm . . . hmm . . . hmmmm . . . What was different? Hmm . . . Was there any one new addition to the organization that had Pro Football talk and all of the other experts throwing up red flags about? Hmmm . . .

BA didn't all of a sudden become the greatest OC in the history of the NFL. Just the NFL (head) Coach of the Year. Ha!! He didn't become a great OC AFTER he left, he was merely a solid one with a Super Bowl ring while he was here.

You should have EMBRACED BA allowing Ben to morph into 'Mr. Sandlot' (but that's another topic). If anyone here thinks Ben Roethlisberger will be more effective as a three-step drop, read the defense, make precision throws, back shoulder darts type of quarterback, then I thank the lord they're not our OC. We have two Super Bowl rings in the past decade BECAUSE Ben Roethlisberger is Ben Roethlisberger. BECAUSE he is a sandlot quarterback. BECAUSE we had an OC who recognized that and allowed him to flourish. WHY . . . WHY . . . WHY?!?! would ANYONE want to try to turn Ben Roethlisberger into Drew Brees?! It's like the idiots in Philly who wanted to turn Michael Vick into a pocket passer. And why would ANYONE want our OC and our franchise quarterback to not get along?!?! Not sure who came up with that but that is the dumbest thing I have ever read on here. Ben was insinuating he didn't like Haley's playcalling earlier in the year (when everyone thinks he was doing so great). Ben also implied our offense did better when he called his own stuff and we went no huddle. Why would anyone want our players to run plays they don't want to run?!

Do I think that we should give Haley one more year? I'd prefer he was gone but I'm fine with playing the wait and see approach too. What other choice do I have?

Time won't tell anything on this board. If we have a bad season, the Haley lovers will blame it on injuries, o-line, Tomlin and whatever else. The Tomlin haters give ANY of his success to Cowher and any of BA's success to the defense. People just want to be right, I guess. I think it's easier just to laugh and say, "Man, I really missed on that one!" Personally, when it comes to Haley, I'd rather be wrong. Unfortunately, it's played out exactly like I thought (and said) it would. The locker room is fractured and our offensive production dropped off drastically. But, you know . . . 'cause of all the fumbles and stuff.

 

1.) I can conclude Haley was a problem. I already posted that I (along with half the media) predicted it, it was confirmed during the season, and it was validated by players after the season. An OC is judged by his numbers and the numbers don't lie. I don't know who created the giant myth that our offense was clicking prior to Ben hurting his ribs but everyone seems to have taken that ball and ran with it. Anybody sporting a boner after our offensive performance against the NY Giants must have accidentally swallowed some Viagara because they need to be reminded that only the Saints had a worse defense last year than the New York Giants. Basically, our best offensive game of the year was against a defense most everybody else in the league had their best game of the year against.

I posted after week four (I think) that our offense had significantly dropped in production from the previous season (under Arians). Everyone jumped all over that post and suggested we needed to wait and see what the entire body of work showed. We waited. It got worse.

2.) Haley had a 2-14 Chiefs team and took them to the playoffs within two years? Yeah, but they lost in the first round so they suck, right? WOOHOO WOOHOO WOOHOO!! Hate to call out this so-called "accomplishment," but let's look a little more closely at this . . . he inherited Chan Gailey as his Offensive Coordinator from Herm Edwards' staff. After a poor PRE-SEASON, this control freak relieved Gailey of his play-calling duties (the same Chan Gailey I believe you've pimped as a guy you wouldn't mind seeing us bring back) and, as head coach, assigned himself the responsibility of calling the plays. That year they went 4-12 WOOHOO WOOHOO!! The following year, with Charlie Weiss as OC, they went 10-6. That IS a nice accomplishment . . . Charlie.

In 2011 he was fired after a 5-8 start. They finished 22nd in the league in offense. 22nd . . . hmm . . . where have I heard that number?

3.) Lie.

 

So in conclusion. The ROONEY'S agree with JackAttack5958 and BFT. Man they really should read this message board so their team would be a lot better off. So let's get this straight for the record. In one corner we have The Rooney's who say "let Wallace walk". In the other corner we have Dick Shiner who says that "Wallace should stay"? You were in the Wallace camp if I'm not mistaken right? Also in this corner we have the Rooney's who say "we are not going to renew BA's contract". In the other corner we have Dick Shiner who says "BA should be back because in 07 we went one and done but Ben had a good statistical year, in 09 we were ranked really high and missed the playoffs, in 08 our DEFENSE carried us to the Super Bowl while the great BA led us to the 22nd ranked offense, and in '10 we went to the Super Bowl and BA called for a bomb in OUR OWN END ZONE which led to a pick 6"? But yet YOU know more than the Rooney's? Wow. Just wow dude. The point I was trying to make about the ranking you posted about BA was that in HIS best year we DIDN'T make the playoffs and yet you were touting that as successful. In 08 we done what I've always said we done which is WIN IN SPITE OF BA. If not for Ben's ability to improvise BA wouldn't have lasted here as long as he did in my opinion. But if you want to ignore the plain facts that I outlined in my original post go ahead. Meanwhile me and my man JackAttack will sit over here in the Rooney's corner. If you like BA so dang much why don't you just go join thecardinalsfans.com? No hard feelings but I'm just sick and tired of people acting like BA was so awesome when obviously if that were the case the Rooney's, the greatest sports family ever in my opinion, would have kept him.

 

You've heard that 22nd number from your earlier post where you very counter intuitively showed that BA ranked 22nd in 08. LOL.

 

Okay, I've slept on it and my apologies for the overuse of your moniker and you're right, I think we probably do agree on most subjects related to the Steelers. But, we do disagree on the Todd Haley and Bruce Arians debate. I think we ought to give Todd Haley an opportunity to prove his worth. The reason I have his "sensitivity" quote as my tag line is because I grew sick and tired of Ben Sandlot doing what he wanted to do while BA stood on the sidelines pretending to coordinate the offense. It frustrated the daylights out of me to see Ben throw a stupid interception or take a stupid sack to take us out of scoring position and then to have he and BA converse mildly on the sideline as if they are discussing who will be making dinner reservations after the game.

Let's face it, the reason Ben loved BA so much is becuase BA spoiled the brat by allowing him to do everything he wanted to do whether it benefited the team or not. I just thought it may be a good thing for a coach to finally stand up to Ben and get in his face a little bit. This is the NFL after all and not the local garden club. Coaches don't always have to be civil to players and vice versa. I'm not saying that Haley should snap every time Ben throws an interceptions or makes a stupid play, but a well placed butt chewing can go a long way in the NFL. I think Haley has a little bit of Bill Parcells in him. He doesn't care who likes him and he's not going to play any favorites, he is just after results. Relationships can be reflected upon after your career is over.

As for BA being named head coach of the year, that was the biggest anomaly in sports history in my opinion. He had the perfect storm in Indy with a once in a generation QB that caught everybody by surprise. Coaches do get way too much blame at times when things go wrong and BA got way too much credit in Indy this year. Hey, more power to him. He parlayed that into a head coaching job that no one saw coming. And one footnote to that. Who did the Bidwells really want as the head coach in Arizona? That's right. Go ahead and say it. TODD HALEY! If he was such terrible OC when he was there and such a terrible HC in KC, why would the Bidwells, another pretty well respected football family, have wanted him to coach their team. The reports were that Haley wanted to stay in Pittsburgh as the OC because he felt that his business there was unfinished so he essentially priced himself out of the market in Arizona. I know, I know. Those reports had to be erroneous. There is NO WAY that the Bidwells wanted Haley to coach their football team because, well, he's just a jerk and yells at some of the players. BOO HOO!!!!

Finally, I find it really easy to root for someone like Haley. The guy grew up as a ball boy around the Steelers of the 70s. His complete loyalty is to the Steelers organization. He bleeds Black & Gold. I loved the fact that he refused to shake Josh McDaniels hand when he was head coach in KC and McDaniels was in Denver. The boy wonder with the Patriots pedigree. He didn't get along with Scott Pioli in KC, another Patsie that I'm sure Haley had some disdain for. I like those kinds of fierce rivalries in sports. I like the fact that Todd Haley considers himself to be a PITTSBURGH STEELER. That really makes me want to root for the guy. Now, if it's proven after giving him ample opportunity that he's incapable of doing the job, then the Rooneys will do the right thing and boot him out the door at some point. But I still really believe that if Ben will get on board and if Haley will compromise a little with Ben, that we could have something special on offense with Haley as the OC. He's no dummy. He has had success in his career. Alot of great football people have had great things to say about him, including players like Kurt Warner and coaches like Bill Parcells. Give the guy a chance and forget about BA. He's gone and IS NOT coming back.

 

Why don't you go and watch that play again instead of making **** up? Ben was yet once again holding onto the ball and doing pump fakes while ignoring Heath on a short out pattern.

 

I think that's kind of his point. BA allowed Ben to get by with crap like that ALL the time.

 

Strummer I actually put in an earlier post that you were absolutely right that Ben held on to the ball for too long on that play so I'm not sure what your issue is about that.

 

Wait I thought we were talking about the play this year in the KC game when Ben got hurt. That's what I was talking about. Is THIS what Strummer was talking about? I had just put in an earlier post how that BA called a bombs away play in the end zone during the SB that led to a pick 6 and I thought that was a stupid play call that was a basic microcosm of BA's philosophy. Maybe you misunderstood since our posts have so many brackets. LOL. I think we've basically got enough brackets for the next few years of March Madness.

 

we were discussing the chiefs game earlier and then you tried to rewrite history regarding the Super Bowl pick 6.

 

How was I trying to rewrite history? I said that was a stupid play call in our own end zone to go bombs away. I wasn't talking anything about pump fakes. And given how the play turned out there's no need for me to rewrite history. It ended in a pick 6. Therefore it was a stupid play call. I mean to say otherwise you must also think Ben's INT in Dallas this year was a thing of genius then right? Oh wait HALEY called THAT play so it was totally dumb. But if BA had called it then it would've been awesome! Gotcha.

 

It's a "stupid play call" because it was executed poorly? The same play that went for 95yards from Ben to Wallace in Arizona?

When Ben throws a pick, it's on Arians. When players fumble, it's a shame they're screwing over Haley.

Bahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!! How conveeeeeenient.

 

Ugh, you had to go a post those highlights, didn't you, TE?!

Look at the last two plays of that game for the Steelers when it was do or die time. Ben tried to FORCE the ball in to Mike Wallace on 3rd and 4th down and you can clearly see that Heath had broken open for the first down BOTH TIMES. I think I'm going to be sick!

 

I think it's hilarious that a lot of people here have said the same things all over the forums about locker room chemistry, but a former Steeler (respectfully) brings it up and he gets slammed.

 

It's okay. Apology accepted. I just think you like having DICK on the tip of your tongue. Hey-o!!

Duuuuude. Did you really just say "another pretty well respected football family" in reference to the Bidwills?! Haha!! I dare you to say that a Cardinals game in Arizona. The Bidwills are the posterboys for poor ownership. Cincinnati fans would reject a trade for the Bidwills and would prefer to keep Mike Brown. The Bidwills are a joke. We ALL know that! Them considering Haley (wasn't there rumor that Haley's agent floated that?) would be unbelievable if it were anybody but the Bidwills. I think they hired Arians simply because he worked for us. I think that's how they make all of their personnell decisions: "Did he work/play for the Steelers? Sign him!"

BA handled Ben the way Ben needed to be handled. THAT is great leadership. You don't kick in a door, scream something about how it's your way or the highway and if you don't like it, too bad, this is no place for crybabies then force YOUR management style on everyone. THAT is poor leadership. Nobody will buy into that (and nobody did). We all know Ben is a big baby. It's not going to do any good to get in his face. We ALL know that. It's NOT going to help. Not sure why people still want that to occur. It might have an impact if someone Ben respected was doing it. I think it's clear Ben (and most of the team) isn't overly fond of Haley. With that in mind, Haley needs to earn his place. He was given it PUBLICLY by Rooney II in a botched up mess (which makes it worse/harder for Haley to do the things you want him to do).

Imagine liking your head coach and your offensive coordinator, then your owner goes over your head coaches head to fire the OC everyone likes only to hire a guy nobody likes. How would you respond? If I worked in a job where I was kicking arse and producing at a high level and the owner went over my respected GM's head to hire a sales manager nobody wanted, and that sales manager came in and gave our sales team that 'sensitivity' speech, and then screamed in my face the moment I dropped an account, my production would probably go the way of Mike Wallace as I devised my exit strategy to leave for another company. Nobody wants to work for an unaccomplished drill sergeant. I'm sure some admins in their little chat rooms would probably say I was a one-trick pony or something.

Of course Warner is okay with him. Why wouldn't Kurt dislike him? Kurt's career was dead. He was buried behind Matt Leinart on the depth chart (yes, Haley preferred Leinart to Warner -- it was Whisenhunt who forced the change to Warner). Warner merely went out there and tore it up. For me, that has everything to do with Kurt Warner and little to do with Todd Haley. That was about execution from a future HOF qb AND futre HOF wr (AND Anquan Boldin) than anything else. It's hard to not be successful with those three playing together.

Forget about BA? I'm not the one that starts these threads. I don't start any threads about BA. I just bring balance to these conversations. Tomlin Era said he thought he was alone on his view and I said, "Like hell you are." It's okay to disagree on things. If everyone agreed, this wouldn't be a very interesting place, right?

But you do realize that the Haley Fan Club have NOOOOOOOTHING to hang their hats on right now, right? NOTHING. People who defend BA have a Super Bowl ring, a top-ten offense, another Super Bowl appearance, NFL Coach of the Year award (after taking over a 1-2 team and guiding them to 10-3) . . . People defending Haley have a 22nd-ranked offense in Pittsburgh (along with a fractured locker room -- that hasn't happened in years), unceremoniously dumped from his previous job (where he was 19-26), turmoil in the job before that . . .

People who defend BA do so with an armful of PRODUCTION.
People who defend Haley do so with an armful of PREDICTION.

 

Hey, he's wearing a Cowgirls uni now Steel. I don't want to hear anything he has to say. He needs to worry about the chemistry in his own locker room now that Tony Romo has broken Jerry Jones First Bank & Trust down there.

 

I am not sure where this vitriol is coming from. I guess you're looking for a scapegoat for the team's 8-8 season, and it's Haley. In regards to point #1, here is my post from last fall, just three games into the season:

'll just go with some simple stats to make a simple case that Haley is a hell of a lot better than Arians.

There is very little to go on, just three games into the Haley era. So I'll give the best comparison I can, the last three games Arians coached with a healthy Ben in 2011 (at Chiefs, vs Bengals, vs Browns) and Haley's first three games this year. Everything is pretty much the same on offense, except Haley doesn't have mendenhall. Here are the numbers:

Offensive pts per game:
Haley 25.66, Arians 18.33

First downs:
Haley 64, Arians 60

Yards:
Haley 1048, Arians 1001

Sacks:
Haley 9, Arians 6

Interceptions:
Haley 1, Arians 2

I do not yet have time of possession stats, but I would guess the team's TOP #s are better under Haley, too. Some caviats to these stats: 2 of Haley's first 3 games were on the road; Arians' numbers are based on 2 home games out of 3. But the biggest # is that under Haley, the Steelers average a TD more per game, while seemingly keeping the ball LONGER, than Bruce's O did in three games last season.

Not a perfect comparison, but the best we have at the moment.

When all things were equal, the Steelers' offense was indeed better under Haley. Of course, nothing is rarely an even, fair comparison. Arians NEVER had the injury issues that Haley did.

I am not sure where the Haley hate comes from. You're bashing him for a first round playoff loss with Matt Cassell at QB? Really? You need to chill.

 

Has there ever been an offensive co-ordinator on the steelers coaching staff that steeler fans ever liked? I cant remember one, remember Mike Mularkey, who could screw up an offense more than he could, he was promoted from with in the organization, he was even a steeler player for 3 years before he coached the tight ends for 3 years then he coached the offense for 3 years: Cowher thought he was the cats meow: Name any other O co-ordinator over the last 25 years and i'll show you an OC fans hated: Give Haley another season and you might get me on the Haley hate wagon with you, if he flops, but after watching this team tollerate Mularkey for 3 year as an OC I think Haley at the very least, should get another season to prove himself.....

 

I must regretfully admit that I can no longer follow this thread and inject my occasional $.03 since it has become too hard to follow with all of the quotes within quotes within quotes within quotes.



Especially if you are trying to follow along on a mobile device.

Please for future reference clean up your posts and consider your fellow friends here at the forum.