Cowher vs Tomlin

Its exactly the same people. I love Bill Cowher. Great guy. When I was 11 years old he signed my hat at Steelers training camp. That was the training camp after Super Bowl XXX, Neil signed a huge deal with the Jets and there was a big QB battle with Jim Miller, and Mike Tomazak, and lesser extent of Kordell. Kordell eventually took it over by the 97 season. Miller was benched at halftime of the opening game, and Tomazak took over.

Funny part is Jim Miller does a great NFL radio show with Pat Kirwan, Pat Kirwan was the GM of the Jets who gave Neil the big dollars to leave Pittsburgh, and Jim won the QB job but was only given like 2 quarters of play, and Bill yanked him.
Miller went on to have several seasons as the Bears QB. He was never really fantastic, but he's got a really good take on the radio with Pat Kirwan on their show Moving the Chains

 

I've proclaimed many times I wanted Cowher fired after he lost the 3rd home AFCCG loss vs. Patriots in '01 season... and then after the 6-10 season in '03. I've wanted Tomlin gone since losing to the Patriots in AFCCG in '16 season. Tomlin won't have the storybook ending that Cowher had because: 1) Steelers are drafting at 20... not 11. 2) The '04 QB draft class was the best since '83.... the '22 QB draft class is the weakest QB class in years. 3) Even though the '03 team had a horrible record, many pieces were already in place for a championship run... not so much with the '21 team.

 

Cowher wasn’t perfect I personally loved watching the Steelers when he first got there. I think NOD scared him so bad he couldn’t trust Ben his rookie year. Cowher handcuffed Ben the entire first half of the AFC championship game. I was ready for him to go near the end but once he got Ben and started rolling/ trusting him it would have been nice to see how much more winning Cowher and Ben would have produced

 

I think the irony in this statement is that the people who defend Tomlin usually do so by attacking Cowher. Tomlin is never evaluated alone it is always in relation to Cowher. Why? I don't know.

"Cowher choked in AFC Championship games!" is the common mantra.

Tomlin choking in Wild Card games is supposed to be better.

 

. What really bugs me is the lack of discipline and no consequences. The only time I saw Tomlin put his foot down with a player was him cutting Santonio Holmes before the 2010 season. For something that seemed a lot less severe than what he has put up with since. Ironically I believe it cost us a super bowl 45 win in my opinion.

 

Agreed except I don’t remember Cowher losing by 28 points at the end of the first quarter. Cowher lost but not in spectacular fashion like Tomlin

 

I don't know if that was Tomlin. It could have been. I agree that Santonio being lost for a 5th (instead of being cut) was a major blow. I would put Santonio right behind AB in terms of the chemistry they had. I don't think Ben has been on the same page like that with any other receiver not even Hines, Diontae, Wallace (who Ben forced the ball to so often). Also Santonio was a game changing punt returner who had a chance to help massively with field position.

 

This is because Steelers fans can only communicate via nostalgia

 

Yeah 3 of those 4 AFCCG losses were by 1 score. 3, 4 and 7 points. A loss is a loss but people are overstating the talent on those teams to understate the coaching when the inverse is true.

 

You're saying that ironically when it is largely true.

Threads about winning % since 1970.

Why not pick something more recent like playoff wins since 2017 or since 2011?

 

You guessed wrong. You can't have an honest conversation about this? I'd start with winning a playoff game. Getting past round 1 would be a good start. At least getting to the AFCC a few times was probably the expectation during Ben's prime. We were expected to be contenders for the SB. We were expected to be in the playoffs and compete. The best we did was make the playoffs and get bounced most seasons. 1 out of the last 11 years you can say we competed. 1 of the last 11 years we actually beat an opponent in the post season. You think that's living up to expectations? I did not say win a SB every season.

You pretending that we lived up to expectations is disingenuous and laughable. Did you not watch any of the last 11 seasons? Alzheimers? Everyone that followed the NFL knew expectations were high in Pittsburgh given the talent we had. You're the only one talking out of your ass here. The season Ben went down for most of the year is the only other season we lived up to expectations and that was due to the fact that expectations dropped to were no one thought we'd win 8 games. 2016 was the other. Good coaches with playoff talent should win playoff games. That's not being overly critical or unfair in anyway.

I believe we missed the playoffs 4 of the last 11 seasons. Not sure you really can count this season but I'll give him that. Of course we were embarrassed once again in the wildcard game. So all it really did was cost several draft pick slots.

 

Still going to the HoF

 

2 be Honest....I actually liked when He did that. I laughed so hard when it happened.

 

Think you better get your facts straight. Brady earned $145M in his first 14 seasons. Ben earned $139m in his 14 seasons. Ben was a 1st round pick and didn't start his career till 2004. Brady started his career in 2000. So just based on the CBA and market value the price of Qb's went up a lot from 2000 to 2004. In hind sight the team did a nice job managing Ben's salary and the cap. If you are arguing Brady had more talent around him because he made less...that's just false. Ben easily had more talent to work with. It's not a debatable. The difference was the coaching, cheating, and Brady being the GOAT.

Brady also made more over the last 7 seasons. There were some contract years were Ben did better but it was an issue of timing. The last few seasons Brady could have made him self the highest paid QB in the league and he choose to give a slight discount on short term deals, but fact of the matter is he has been getting guaranteed $ which is even better. 1 injury to anyone of these guys could have cost them plenty. Brady made $50m Guaranteed last 2 seasons. Ben was guaranteed $37m. Last 3 years Ben made $90m. Brady $88m. He's after stats and title now but still got paid but at a bargain for what he was bringing to the table.

Factor in inflation Ben probably would be on the bottom of this top 10 ever list. You can fully expect Maholmes and Rogers to pass him soon. Most money paid in the NFL:

1. Drew Brees, $269M 2. Tom Brady, $263M 3. Ben Roethlisberger, $253M 4. Eli Manning, $252M 5. Peyton Manning, $248M 6. Matt Ryan, $244M 7. Philip Rivers, $243M 8. Aaron Rodgers, $240M 9. Matthew Stafford, $226M 10. Alex Smith, $189M

there are a whole lotta playoff wins in this list. You really gonna argue that their teams were at a big disadvantage due to QB contracts? I'd love to see the list of the cheapest QB's and how many playoff wins did those teams earn?

 

You could have said Tomlin went to 2 Super Bowls in his first 4 years. The next 4 years he didn't win a playoff game so it's weird you used 8 years.

Seifert was on the 49ers since 1983 as defensive coordinator. The 49ers must have thought Seifert played a large role in their success to hire from within. It seems they were right.

 

If you're gonna be fair then the switzer comparison is spot on for that first SB win. We had just won a SB 2 years prior and our star QB bounced his head off a windshield which really derailed Cowher's last season. Tomlin took over and was successful immediately with a great team that had won a SB, was loaded with stars.....not to mention with Cowher's entire staff still on the payroll. I'm more than happy to give Tomlin credit for winning that SB and choking in the SB in 2010...but you can at least be honest.

It's not like Tomlin rebuilt the team, hired a coaching staff, Found a franchise QB and built a SB winner. He never won with less talent on the field. That is fine that he won with what was given to him. No one can take that but we can be honest about the conversation. The owners kept that team together for a reason. Once the coaches and players left the success stopped. Id say we successfully re built the roster after that. We had Ben in his prime w/ AB, Bell, and many other great players...and plenty of time to build a contender. It just didn't work, we could not win in the post season. We could dominate the regular seasons but as soon as we met teams with good players and good coaches we were embarrassed. We've had 1 truly good season that we competed to win the AFC since 2010. Not sure how you can you defend it or even deny it.

I think you can say Tomlin earned the right to get lots of chances to rebuild. he's had that. I had no problem doing that. But after about 8 years of underachievement and undisciplined football I was ready for a change. I also don't think people are willing to accept that coaches just like players can improve and learn from mistakes. So that's been my hope the past 5-6 years. We had a blip of improvement from the defense a couple seasons ago but then took two steps backwards. The owners want to give him another chance to win without Ben. Ok. Nothing we can do about that but hope for the best. I hope he learned from mistakes this season and last. If we manage to win playoff games next year then I think it's fair to say MT did a better job coaching...not that anyone was right or wrong about it. the proof is in the wins and losses in regards to the expectations of the team. At some point I'd like to see us exceed expectations. If he's such a good coach wouldn't you think that might happen more than once in the last 11 years? I suspect 2022 is Tomlin's last chance at a contract extension in Pittsburgh.

 

Unfortunately, you didn't understand the points I made in regard to how a QB'S cap hits eventually took over A TEAMS ABILITY TO BUILD STRONGER ROSTERS.

Let me dummy this down for you so you understand. I'm wasn't talking about career earnings but salary cap % that QBs command.

Mahommes took up almost 4% of Cheifs cap. Next year he will take up almost 17% of the Chiefs cap this year. What players will the Chiefs eventually lose or be unable to resign?

Allen in Buffalo took up 5.42% of Bills cap this year. Next year he only takes up 7.78% of the Bills cap. As a result, the Bills can build a stronger roster. Allens cap charge jumps from 16 mill in 2022 to 39 mill in 2023. They will have to make tough decisions with one player's salary more than doubling.

The Bengals are getting franchise caliber play out of their young QB on a rookie cap friendly deal. Once they do an extension then they will probably have 2 to 3 years before the cap charges become significant to affect the team's cap and roster.


I also said I understand that teams have to pay QB'S because it's difficult to win without QBs. Even lesser QB'S like Cousins got paid and took up a substantial amount cap space in Min.

Brady took below market value deals with the Pats.
Did the same with the Bucs. He took up 12.25 % in2020, 5.79% 2021 and 8.78 % in 2022 of Bucs cap space. Looks like a bargin to me.

So you tell me what TEAMS are in a better situation?

Teams that get franchise level play out of young QBs on rookie deals/1st contract extensions or teams that have veterans QBs taking up a substantial amount of cap space which affects other areas of the team building process?

 

2019 the Steelers had AB eatting over 10% of their salary cap. Same year Ben was injured taking up over 12% of the cap. Over 22% of cap space on players that didn't play a significant role during the season.

I know I know that people don't like to look at the overall picture but only want results/wins.

 

OK I get it. Makes sense.

 

What about the last 10 seasons that Tomlin had Ben? Seems like those 10 seasons which saw players like AB, Bell, Watt on rookie contracts without success. Looking at 10 seasons seems like a more overall view than one.

I think people know that the time to contend for Super Bowls is over and now is the time when missing the playoffs, going one and done, trailing by 20+ in 4 straight playoff games is more expected.

 

And I explained to you why your point is BS w/ some data to prove it. You are in over your head and keep bringing it. It's funny.

Cap space management is completely up to the team and very fluid. If anyone needed more cap space to get a signing done they rework the structures. How many times did we re work contracts to sign players? None of those teams struggled to win because of cap issues. If the Steelers at any point wanted to sign a player they could have. We offered to make Bell the highest paid RB ever, he walked. We made Watt the highest paid defensive player ever , he signed.

You think you can run the cap better than Omar Kahn then maybe should give Mr Rooney a call. Not paying Ben was not going to translate into wins because we signed other players...that's ultimately what you were insinuating it is utter and complete BS. You did a good job dummy'ing your post down. I'll give you that. Only a dummy would try to argue your point any further . Could have said... "oh didn't know that". or "good point, the $ paid to Ben actually translated into wins like it did for all of those other QB's on that list" or "too bad the team didn't spend more $ on other players". Instead you decided to claim Ben took our cap space and prevented us from signing other players vs Brady and others that took less $. They didn't take less $ than Ben. Brady actually was paid more. How the team chose to spread that across their cap was up to them. The other teams structured their cap usage differently so your silly %'s are completely irrelevant. It's not a Madden video game.

 

Certainly they Steelers failed to be successful if championship are your only messure of success. Winning championships are not the only way I define successful organizations.

How do you define success?

How did Ben and other player's turnovers and performance impact the outcome of games? Where do injuries fall into the equation?

Anyway difficult to have a thoughtful discussion with people that want to blame everything on the HC.