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Do you want Ben as our starting QB in 2021?

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by SteelerGlenn, Jan 17, 2021.

  1. Yes

    37 vote(s)
    31.9%
  2. No

    79 vote(s)
    68.1%
  1. DukeDukeDaDaDa

    DukeDukeDaDaDa Well-Known Member

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    For someone who complains about how Tomlin never gets blame, you're sure making a lot of excuses for BB.
     
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  2. Disco1981

    Disco1981 Well-Known Member

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  3. Seven4Steel

    Seven4Steel Well-Known Member

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    The standard is the standard. Another wasted season. SMH

    Let's not try to get better than last season. It worked out so well for us. Let's try beating our head against a wall again, expecting a different result.
     
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  4. Thor

    Thor

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    So, bringing Ben back means they're not trying to get better at all. I suppose the rest of the team should all be cut or traded as well?
     
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  5. Seven4Steel

    Seven4Steel Well-Known Member

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    I think cutting or trading the rest of the team might be a little drastic. Pretty sure they couldn't accomplish that with current contracts. NFLPA might have something to say about it.

    But histrionics aside, the focal point of the offense is the qb. Ben is arguably the most impactful player on that side of the ball. His play last season, commendable at times, was NOT conducive to a productive, dynamic offense. It was limiting and made us predictable, inevitably failing us.

    Bringing him back has no upside over last year. His knees will not be better. His arm won't be better, albeit potentially a bit more consistent, because every indication from he, his teammates, and the organization was that his arm was stronger than it was in years. That narrative, no matter how accurate, did not equate to being able to effectively push the ball down the field. His arm will NOT be stronger this season. All things considered, he will have no improvement over last year. No improvement.

    Bringing him back means 85% shotgun and a commitment to a quick release, small ball offense that relies on his arm to supplement an inadequate running game. We cannot run consistently out of shotgun. No one can. We can't rpo out of shotgun with a qb who can't roll out of the pocket. The rpo ends up being either a draw because Ben can't move to a spot or another quick release. The OL is forced to emphasize pass blocking over selling the run because Ben can't move off his spot. And THAT clogs up running lanes IF the run option is used.

    Bringing Ben back means a commitment to mediocrity (credit to whoever used that term already...it fits). It means that his presence is valued over production, over wins. So yeah, bringing him back SCREAMS that getting better is not a priority. The standard is the standard and Deucer, KC, and Tomlin are all in on a repeat of last season.

    That might sit well with some. Not with me.
     
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  6. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    I’m in the camp of moving on from Ben, largely because of cap implications, I’d rather they keep some of younger players who have a lot of football left in them then hang onto Ben who’s play drastically fell off down the stretch last year just to play one more season of football.

    However, I don’t believe that the Steelers are bringing him back to commit to mediocrity though, I sure they are doing it with the hope that his elbow will be another year removed from surgery and that much more improved and his knees will receive an offseason of treatment and then give him a ground game and improvements to the line and hope for the best. I’m sure they believe Ben gives them the best shot.

    I’m not real confident in that plan but in terms of reaching the SB, I wouldn’t be confident with Rudolph and Haskins either. In terms of the SB, Ben is their best chance. Going to need him to stay healthy and hope he takes this offseason seriously to get in top shape and I don’t mean just coming into camp a little svelte, I mean making sure you are taking care of your body and giving it the right fuel. I’m sure Bens diet would horrify every sports nutritionist in the world. Want your body to hold up to the rigors of a football season, be a psycho like Brady in how you take care of yourself.
     
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  7. mac daddyo

    mac daddyo Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe he gives us a BETTER chance as opposed to rudolph, especially since he can't run the new coordinators offense the way they want to run it. Sure Ben may have a ton more know how but if you can't physically do it, then what are we gaining. Mason can move, throw the ball and play under center even though at times may be confused by the defenses from time to time, that should improve every year on the field. I just don't see the upside Ben gives the team over him. Things were not looking great for ben two years ago to start the season either. The offense looked flat then. Now we change it but he can't run the new one. What are we gaining with him? I think art just figured if Ben can just manage the game, the rest of the team can win it. I got news for him the rest of the team isn't strong enough for that.:cool:
     
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  8. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not worried about Ben's body holding up, he worked with a trainer last offseason.
     
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  9. SteelerGlenn

    SteelerGlenn

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    You forgot the green font.
     
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  10. Thor

    Thor

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    I understand your point on Ben's role, but you're making a lot of assumptions on his performance and that of the offense overall. Regardless of Ben's presence I don't see any way Canada won't begin making adjustments to the scheme and approach, and I think Ben's in the know on that and what he needs to bring as well.

    I don't expect miracles from Ben physically, but I also think some of the blame pinned to him because of the offensive shortcomings have been a bit overblown. He's definitely not the same, but I think he's more functional than some have made him out to be. My main concern with keeping him on is his impact financially - the team needs to be retaining its young talent. Argument on Ben's abilities vs. replacement level aside, he's definitely a negative cost/value now.

    That said, there's the defense as well. I'd like to say it should be on line to outperform last year, but that depends on injuries and returning players. Bush's return will be beneficial, Highsmith will in all likelihood step into Dupree's slot. I think one of Hilton/Sutton needs to be retained; both would be ideal. That situation again speaks back to Ben's potential financial ramifications.

    End of day, I don't think ownership is settling for mediocrity. Their decision to keep on with some older vets - Ben included - is taking some chances, but I think performance is being a bit overblown. I'm waiting to see what impact it has on retaining the younger talent before passing full judgement.
     
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  11. Steel Hog

    Steel Hog Well-Known Member

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    Can you provide a similar analysis on the game 1 week later?
     
  12. Maddog78

    Maddog78 Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't sit well with me, either. I keep hearing he's our best chance to win a Super Bowl. Maybe, but it's the difference between a 1% chance and a 0.5% chance at this point.

    I think people will start to realize that after the new league year and our roster starts to fill out with Bostic/Burnett/Barron/Moncrief retreads who will all be gone in 2022, while real contenders strengthen their teams.
     
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  13. Steel Hog

    Steel Hog Well-Known Member

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    Agree, unfortunately. I just am having a hard time trying to believe we will be a more talented team next year than last for obvious reasons that need not be pointed out again for the 1000th time. If that is true, how would anyone believe we will be SB contenders? I am just hoping they will be competitive and have a winning record because that it the best we have done with just about everyone around. We don't even know who our OL will be and who's leaving for FA. Why would Ben want to come back and possibly go out with a mediocre record? This is where the organization losses me in that its a pay now, or pay later scenario. I wish I knew who is really running this team and where they acquired their strategy from.
     
  14. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    No need for green font, he talked about after elbow surgery he worked with a trainer in the offseason.
     
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  15. Seven4Steel

    Seven4Steel Well-Known Member

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    I hear ya. And I get what you're saying. I'm just looking at this from a different angle. Physically, Ben will not improve this season. That's not an assumption. It just is. So we will have last year's Ben with another year on his body. His arm will not be stronger. How could it? His knees will not be better. How could they? Now, with a year of work on his new elbow, he very well might get more accustomed to it and be able to make some throws that he couldn't make consistently last season. That is a big plus. But it is also an assumption. There's no guarantee that will happen.

    The problem with all this is that he has limited mobility. That means the ball is being handed off in one spot. Think about that. Defenses know where the ball will be when the RB gets it. And since he is in shotgun 85% of the time, that spot is 5-7 yards behind the line of scrimmage. And because of his age/health, the OL is pass blocking on most plays to make sure no one gets to him. You can't run out of that. There are no running lanes.

    And in the passing game, gameplanning for a <2.5 second release gives the WR's no time for separation and no time for passing lanes to develop. Ben had more balls batted down at the line this past season than in any other season in his career. Why? Because our OL couldn't hold the line of scrimmage and because they didn't have the time move bodies in front of them. Ben is a statue. Without mobility, a DL can simply watch his mechanics and determine when the ball is coming out. He isn't going to move in the pocket to find a passing lane, one because he can't physically do it, and two because he doesn't have time if he wants to get the ball out in <2.5.

    Ben is a liability to this offense as a whole, even if he paid US to suit up this season.
     
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  16. Da Stellars

    Da Stellars Well-Known Member

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    Offensive line let us down this year, not Ben.
     
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  17. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    Half of this is bullocks. Yeah Brady is moving all over the field. So did Eli , so did Patton. LoL. Its crap . Helped L. Jackson, Dak, J. Allan, and K. Murray. The only thing I agree on is he must get under center more.
     
  18. Steelrules

    Steelrules Well-Known Member

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    The message from the FO is clear. We want you back, but it will be on our terms. Ben doesn't have the leverage that he used to have.
     
  19. Seven4Steel

    Seven4Steel Well-Known Member

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    Wait, what? No one said Ben needs to run keeps. No one said he should be scrambling. Brady is special and shouldn't really ever be used for comparisons, but he still executes a qb sneak from time to time. And he is effective under center and in shotgun. His age and physical condition do not limit playcalling or gameplanning. Is that bullocks? No. It is not.

    Ben limits the offense because of his age and physical condition. Bullocks? Again, no.

    Disprove me regarding Ben's ability to move, ability to take snaps under center at a frequency that allows RB's to actually get into a rhythm, and durability to the extent that the OL isn't pass blocking on running plays.

    He can't/won't be under center more. His knees won't allow him to take the snap, pivot, and move to a handoff point. And he isn't able to execute a 3 or 5 step drop quickly or safely enough to be effective passing from under center as well.

    We can disagree. That's okay. I know I'm not going to change your mind. I'm fine with that. Just as long as you understand you'll not change mine.

    :drinks:
     
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  20. DukeDukeDaDaDa

    DukeDukeDaDaDa Well-Known Member

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    Was it Richard Simmons?
     
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  21. Seven4Steel

    Seven4Steel Well-Known Member

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    Close!!

    bigbenRS.jpg
     
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  22. zcoop

    zcoop Well-Known Member

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  23. Thor

    Thor

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    I get what what you're saying as well. Our difference is simply in how capable/incapable we view Ben may be. While you're stating some of his limitations as fact, there are some I think could be less severe than you, based on other reports and observations from the latter portion of the season.

    Doesn't mean I'm right. But I'd like to think if Ben was truly incapable of moving a few steps, throwing the ball more than 20 yarrds, etc., Rooney would have more sense than to ride on emotion and spend $19M bringing him back. Of course, I could be wrong there as well.

    In the end, I hope I'm more right that wrong if for no other reason than I don't want t see Ben flail through a season that puts an even uglier end to his career than the last few games of last year did. (And I'd expect Rooney to step and and prevent that from happening as well.)
     
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  24. S.T.D

    S.T.D Well-Known Member

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    He ran Qb sneaks last year he played . Just not this year. Its freaking amazing a man has major surgery on his arm, and he might be a little worried about damaging it again. I don't know about you, but I have been seriously injured. The hardest part about coming back , once your finally healed , is your mind. I know I won't change your mind , or you mine, but please people....He just came off major surgery. I agreed he must be under center more. Also earlier in the year he was. I'm not sure what happened 2 change this, but something did. Anyways its all good. If everyone agrees...wouldn't be much 2 talk about.
     
  25. Thor

    Thor

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    This is frustrating.

    https://steelersdepot.com/2021/02/l...-center-which-eliminates-play-action-passing/

    I don't care what Ben favors, it's the coaches' job to implement a scheme that has maximum effectiveness. And when your QB gets north of 35, you especially need to be assessing the passing game with and ensuring there's an effective counter.

    One of the silliest trends, IMO, the team has shown is in leaning further into the passing game as Ben's gotten older. This is the time they should have been re-establishing the run, not just to ease pressure/performance off Ben, but to set it up his replacement for success as well. Not an effective strategy.
     
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