VWill98 discussion thread

in listening to SNR today Moats and Uhler were discussing bounce back players. Obviously Juju and Connor were first on the list but they also brought up Vince in his reduced role and his potential to bounce back.

So we know they aren't cutting him because there is no savings in it. Plenty of media types talking that you don't want him playing a majority of the snaps because he is a liability in coverage and the possible hybrid safety/lb roles and who would fill them. Mark Madden talked to Kevin about it and it seemed underwhelming to be honest. Also whether or not bringing Barron back was a possibility although Labs pointed out they gave Barron's number out already and they don't typically do that if they are bringing the guy back.

There has been concern expressed by board members about Cleveland using a two headed monster at running back and a power run game, Mixon in Cincy and all those backs and Jackson in Baltimore, that with the loss of Hargrave that run defense is going to be rough. Vince has always been a good thumper when he is going downhill and not having to move laterally tracking the back. I feel better with him in there against some of these teams with Bush as a rover than Marcus Allen as a hybrid or the rookie, or having go play Fitz down in the box or Edmunds.

So what is VWill's role and how much time will he see.

 

I think you just described his role and the amount of time will depend on who we are playing. At least, that would be the smart way to go about it. I'm hoping a healthy Tuitt and a Bush with a full year under his belt will shore up the run game

 

Which begs the question will he play in a base 3-4 package with Alualu playing nose between Heyward and Tuitt or a big Nickel subpackage where they bring both Vince and Bush in close to the LOS and threaten to blitz from it with Vince running downhill?

 

I don't want to take anything away from Vince but I think his sack totals is kinda like the AB effect on Juju. Vince can get after the QB alright but typically its a delayed blitz where Tuitt, Cam, TJ and recently Bud are accounted for and he gets a big hole to run downhill on. Still a sack and still impressive but he needs the other guys too.

 

can anyone remember was it Timmons or Shazier in his rookie season that sat out a game or two being dinged up an VWill played out of his mind and ended up with 10 tackles, 2 for a loss and just was flying around everywhere which caused fans to start suggesting one of the other two weren't needed?

 

Statistics last year show improved run defense with VW in the game. You have to stop the run first and foremost. That’s what he’s good at. He a 2 down thumper that will be subbed in sub packages.

 

That’s how ILBs get most their sacks. If they are engaging OL it isn’t going to end up productive.

 

Yes this was why the cross-fire blitz was less and less productive as Farrior/Foote and Farrior/Timmons went on. More times getting gobbled up in the block and fewer times getting past and forcing the QB to move.

 

I think the beat writers are looking at if Vwill is out there that teams would spread it out force Bush to cover and get a favorable match up of have Vwill trying to stay with an athletic TE on a seam or a speedy slot receiver on a drag or crossing route. Which would somewhat blunt the pass rush.

 

You reminded me of Gildon and Brown who I always felt played the 3-4 part perfectly and looked sexy while Guys like Aaron Smith and Casey Hampton did all the dirty work that never makes a box score stat.

Not saying they didnt do their job....but I felt it was similar to how you nailed it.

 

*Insert Keenan Allen...Over, And over, And over

 

No team is game planning against what Vince can bring, they're game planning on how they can exploit him.

 

I remember those oh crap moments when I saw that. Also when the blitz came from one side.... the teams were then throwing to that same side that it was coming from because you had that infamous cushion that Taylor would give.

 

I think Vince will see more playing time this year because Bush's cover skills will be better.

 

Run defence is going to be important in the division as others have stated, and I think with the lack of pre season all teams will be running more so being able to contain the run will be vital. There is a role for Vince but you need to get him out on obvious passing downs and get another DB in.

Lack of cover behind Vince and Bush is a worry, perhaps they feel UG3 is ready to play more. Barron played a lot last year so somebody has to take those snaps.

 

8 of those came in one season. The following season that was cut in nearly half, despite playing more snaps. 4.5 Last season it was cut to nearly half again. 2.5. The season with 4.5 he blitzed 70 times. 94 blitzes the last two years with 7 sacks.

In seven seasons he doesn't have a forced fumble.

We are paying him over 7 million dollars.

4 missed tackles last year. Eleven the year before.

Actually his rookie year and last year the snap count was almost the same with nearly identical results except for solo tackles which was better as a rookie.

89 tackles his big year, followed by 76 despite more snaps with about half the sacks for a lot more money.

27 solo tackles last year with 4 missed tackles. 2.5 sacks.

5 passes defended in 7 years. Gives up 9 yards per completion, so why would a team run when he's in the game, even on first down? He has an 87% completion percentage against him.

I know everybody thinks I just hate on vince, but for what we pay him there is a lot to be desired.

 

Bince as stated is a solid run stuffer and can blitz. Keeping him away from coverage is paramount. He is signed through 2021 with a cap hit of 7,031.668 this year and next. Dead cap if he is released next season would be 3,031,668 saving 4 mill.

I hope to see Gilbert lll improve and getting more snaps to hopefully be the replacement next season.

 

I hope we see UG3 and Brooks more this season. We really need a guy that can do it all next to bush. We need to get the production of that position back to the level of timmons/farrior or timmons/shazier. Vince should be in a sub role only.

 

That's why I mentioned the dead cap for next season would save 4 mill. Release him this season and the price is 6 mill. So they will keep him for this season and hope that Gilbert lll can be his replacement.

 

everyone and their damn mother wanted a RB this draft and went googoo over Derrick Henry last year, but keep a run stuffing LBer on the roster? that's preposterous . Yeah no one likes VW98s price tag and they want him off the field on passing downs, but when the run teams come to town, I'm glad we still have VinniVidiVici. If no team wants to run at him and they consistently pass, then he just made their offense more predictable. Defensive coaches should take advantage of that.

 

He and Bush can't defend the pass with any consistency.
VW needs to earn his big salary.

 

Run stuffing my azz. There is no team afraid to run at Vince williams. That's fantasy that he is some great run stuffer. Linebackers need to be around that 100+ tackle Mark consistently. Vince best year was 89. The next year it went to 76. With more snaps actually. Go back and look at our ilbers over the years, they were all near that Mark with higher forced fumble marks as well and their difference from solo to assisted tackles was always high. Our last linebackers could produce higher totals in that area and have better pass coverage skills and ability. Complete packages is what it takes, and Vince is way far from that. Open your eyes. Vince is only here because Colbert screwed up and gave him too much money. This spot is going to be a problem, Mark my words. It feels like the Larry Foote years all over again. I bitched about him for years and fought with people on here about being able to do so much better then him at that position. He at least made tackles and forced fumbles, even though they were 5-6 yards down the field. No quit drinking the Kool-Aid of Vince being such a fun stuffer extraordinaire. He is not and will be exploited again. It will be like grondhog day.