Edge Rushers - So Far

Yep, my impression too. He can definitely rush the passer from the right side of the defense, and had success against SEC talent. It's just that he's so inconsistent, and I'm not sure that he projects well to OLB as opposed to a 4-3 DE.

 

Well, I had a chance to watch a couple of games each for the Bama duo of Anderson and Williams. I think Anderson was a more complete college player, and should do OK in the NFL - OK, but probably not great. Williams is shot out of a cannon on pass rushes. I'm not sure he will ever be able/willing to do much else at an NFL level, but his speed off the edge and surprising inside moves would make him a chore for any left tackle to handle - especially later in a game when his team has the lead, and the tackle has to find a way to handle Williams play after play without Williams having to worry about the run. I think the Bruce Irvin comparison is good, but I think Williams can be even better rushing the passer, and probably worse at everything else.

Is that specialty speed rush worth pick #30? If it weren't for the off-the-field stuff, I'd be really tempted. However the sting of Martavis is still fresh.

 

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I went back and re-watched the UCLA vs. Utah game twice to see if I was missing something about Takk. I don't see it quite the same way that you do. Bolles did well against him on most plays, but he had his moments against Bolles as well, including one great play among the list below. Here's a charting of some key things that I saw in that game that lead me to believe that he has the potential to be top-tier edge guy. The times are the approximate time of the start of the plays in the tape on DBD:
1:00 - left side - disengages and strings out running play to his side. Unfortunately he doesn't finish up for the TFL, but sets up the easy play for a teammate at the LOS.
1:40 - left side - 2nd & 14: one play after dropping the QB for a 4 year loss on an option, he notches a sack by dipping low and fast to "square off" the arc. Utah tried to block him on the edge with a G - dumb and it cost them. What I see on this play is the ability to get a few steps upfield, plant his foot, and turn the corner fast - something that not all edge guys can do. It's raw, but it's there. He gets the sack less than 2 seconds after the snap, forces the fumble and recovers.
3:04 - right side - he counters inside off the snap and has Bolles beat, but runs into the left guard and Bolles is able to recover. I think this is one where we can debate whether Bolles was expecting the inside help. I think not. To me it looks like Takk gets victimized by UCLA's stunt because the guard sees his guy looping out and turns right into the spot where Takk is beating Bolles inside. Later in the game there's a similar play that I think is more a combination block with the LG helping Bolles inside.
3:20 - right side - initial outside rush is handled by Bolles, but Takk sees the QB step up and forces Bolles to hold him as he changes direction to get the QB stepping up. On this occasion the ref sees it and flags Bolles.
5:05 (or 5:15 - can't read my own chicken scratch) - left side - great inside move to collapse inside and make tackle for short gain (see my notes later on Takk's overall play against the run that day).
5:52 - right side - WOW play. Working against Bolles, it appears that Bolles is pushing him around the QB, but he contorts his body and stabs the ball out of the QB's hands while Bolles is grabbing jersey with both hands. It's just dumb luck for Utah that the ball bounces right back to the QB. It's also luck that the ref doesn't see that Bolles is trying to pull Takk's jersey up over his shoulder pads. Why is this a WOW play? Because Takk is working against the best tackle in college football, is in the process of being looped past the QB (classing speed rusher footwork mistake), but still has the ability to physically get his long arm around the tackle and make what could have been a game chafing play were it not for luck.
9:50 - right side - blows around pulling guard for TFL (again, see commentary on his run defense below).
10:23 - right side - stunts from right edge all the way around the center, and then straight to the QB for a hit as the ball is being released. This shows me that his 4.5 40 is legit (rare for and edge rusher), and that he has the speed to be used on long, looping stunts and still get home in time (many edge rushers are simply too slow). It's another tool for the DC's pass rushing tool box.
12:00 - left side - bites inside on the read option and is out of position to stop the QB on the dye; however he changes direction quickly and strings the QB toward the sideline, Ultimately his teammate bails him out and make the tackle, but the play shows Takk's ability to change direction quickly and accelerate. There's really no film of him dropping into coverage, so we need to look for the physical traits to be able to do so, and this is an example.

For me, evaluating players is sometimes more about evaluating traits for our coaches to further develop more so than saying "did he dominate player X." If he doesn't win his matchup, I need to see why and convince myself that it's correctable. In the 1 vs 1 pass rush match ups with Bolles that Takk clearly lost, I saw three "fixable" trends at various points: 1) Takk seeming to look for the run play first, and being more in position to set the edge than to get to the QB (which makes it really easy for Bolles who knows that it's a pass play); 2) Takk facing up to Bolles with his feet positioned toward Bolles like he's bull rushing, but his handwork trying to disengage rather than drive Bolles back (i.e. pass rushing without a plan); and 3) many cases of the classic edge rusher footwork mistake of running too far upfield and being pushed past the QB. To be sure, some of this certainly had to do with Bolles being one of the most athletic tackles to come out in recent years. I see positive traits that can't be coached - size, speed, agility, length (34"+ arms), and most of all passions and relentlessness. I see negatives that can be addressed.

With respect to Takk's run defense in that game: it can difficult to know exactly what guy is being asked to do. In this game he consistently got outside leverage and prevented runs to the outside, however the offense used that and ran some off tackle power plays just inside of him to devastating effect. His teammates certainly got hammered on those plays, but was Takk told simply to set the edge and turn plays inside, or was he being to passive, failing not diagnose, etc.? There were a few plays noted above where he collapsed those types of running plays and made the tackle at or behind the LOS. Was his assignment different on those plays? I wish I could be in on one of those team visits to put this game on screen and ask these questions, because when he tried to collapse those running plays from the edge he was really effective doing so, but most of the time he seemed to be simply protecting the outside and ensuring that the play was forced inside to his teammates (who were consistently being buried by the Utah blockers).

Anyway, not much more that I can say on Takk. I'm sold on who he's going to be as an NFL player once good NFL coaches get their hands on him. He checks all of the trait boxes for me, and anything negative I think is correctable. I think by 2018 he's a top edge guy as long as he doesn't end up in the Factory of Sadness.

 

I wanted to watch some film on these guys to see some of the later round talent. I was able to watch Carroll by watching his teammate Smoot (3 games on DBD), who looks pretty good. Phillips does not look like anything resembling a 3rd round edge rushing talent to me. He's very skinny, and gets bullied with ease by offensive linemen. His impact plays are few and far between - almost random occurrences. He also shared time with another RDE. Perhaps there's long-run potential there, but I think it's long-run potential with an emphasis on "long." I don't spend an early-mid round pick on a guy who may develop into a rotational edge rusher by 2019, and I'm not sure I even see that potential. I'm thinking his ticket to the NFL is as an OLB in a 4-3. I was only able to find one full game on Dimick (vs. BYU in 2015), but I haven't looked for tape of his teammates or opponents yet. I like what I've seen - but almost certainly as a 4-3 DE only, unless he sheds weight and is able to improve his lateral agility like Chickillo has done. In fact, his tape kind of reminds me of Chickillo at Miami. I haven't watched a snap of Hall yet, but his measureables and length are intriguing.

 

While I would agree that the front is strong overall, we're still deficient on the edge. Our best edge rusher is pushing 40 years old, and our other starter is a guy who has off the charts potential, but is still a question mark. I wouldn't cringe if the legit 1st round edge rushers go before #30 and we end up going safety. However, no way in hell do I pass on a legit 1st round edge rusher who can help out in 2017 just to come back and take a project player at the position later.

 

I don't know mac, to me it looked like opponents' plan against Illinois' front was mostly to help out whoever lined up opposite Smoot, and let the LT handle Phillips 1 on 1. Smoot looked to me like "the" guy on Illinois' front, not Phillips.

 

Just wanted to revisit this thread before tonight. I think we all acknowledge that OLB is a priority. It's a position we need to address.

But when doing mocks, I really am having a hard time getting an OLB to us before round 3. Just about every prospect has issues and questions. See below.

I fully expect Myles Garrett, Solomon Thomas, Derek Barnett and Haason Reddick to be off the board.

I think Taco Charlton and Jordan Willis are 4-3 guys.

Takk McKinley isn't the great athlete some think he is. Plus he has injury concerns.

Charles Harris has consistency issues. Major ones.

Tim Williams is not a complete player and has multiple character concerns.

Carl Lawson isn't a great athlete and has an injury history.

TJ Watt also has an injury history and may not be a consistent sack guy from the outside.

Alot of people like Derek Rivers but I can't possibly see him in play at #30.

Tarred Basham at #62? I could buy that.

But anyway you slice it, I think if you want an OLB at #30 and maybe even #62, you are reaching a bit and are in no way taking BPA.

 

Disagree substantially on Takk, for reasons stated in detail in earlier posts. The injury is my only concern. I have read one article a month or so ago that suggested that he might not be the brightest bulb, but I only saw that concern raised once, and there's obviously no way to verify.

On Watt, I have watched more of his tape since I originally started this thread, and I have only been more and more impressed. He's still learning and growing, but he already shows traits of a complete player - by that I mean that he does everything you want an edge guy to do well: setting the edge vs the run, rushing the passer, dropping into coverage, etc. He also shows consistently high effort, productivity and football IQ. He may never be a fast bending terror on the edge, but he'll still impact as a pass rusher, and will help us force longer yardage situations on 3rd down by being a more complete run defender than most edge guys. I think he provides great value at #30.

 

I'm not saying that I wouldn't take any of them but it just seems like they all have "something" concerning. No clean choices.

 

Who is "clean" in the draft process? Even the near-consensus #1 overall pick is an SEC edge rusher who had most of his sacks in non-SEC games.

 

That's exactly what is going to make so exciting actually. There are so few clea nprospects. I have no idea what to expect.

In doing my 1st round mock I realized I'd have a better chance playing darts blindfolded.