Carnell Lake needs to go

woodleys injuries? harrisons eventual injuries. woodley and silver back were not struggling before that and timmons was playing very well. harrison went from an udfa to DPOY under butler as a vet coach. spence then went down. williams was a rookie but played well. then we started trying to fill a void with young draftees and butler spent a lot of time working towards his eventual takeover of the defense two years ago. our LB'er corp took a step back this year with butler not teaching full time at that spot.

 

Correction: He was already hurt when drafted and made it worse in mini-camp. I'm doubting his intelligence already.

 

I am not suggesting that the 2010 team suffered Mac, but you have to admit that there has been a decline even under DL with Butler as LB coach things were trending down were they not? Did they take a step back or were they already back and Proter and Jerry just have a different style than Butler? I know Joey has the philosophy that pass rushing has to be an every day thing not a once a week practice drill that Butler did before Porter was hired.

 

We also had our share of misses with Butter as the LB coach.

 

With Munchak are you referring to his time with the Steelers or his entire coaching career?

 

I've been saying this since last season. Coach lakes doesn't get a pass. The evaluation of most of these guys were by coach lakes. I can remember hearing him saying...this guy is a stud,ballhawk,if he was 2-3 inches taller....he would've been a 1st rounder.
I've said this all year...every db that play for the steelers can't be this bad. All of them get burnt and they all are suited up as starters.

 

I agree evaluation is the problem... However, like you said no one can be coached up that quickly. I think we have a problem of giving up too quick around here on our DB picks the last few years regardless if they haven't gone to do squat elsewhere... They don't even get a chance before they're ran out under the guise of some sudden injury

 

With a few exceptions, Colbert seems to like to wait until round 5 for a CB....

 

I posted this in the past about Lake because he doesn't develop any players, he could be responsible for the drafting of Shaq Richardson he recruited him to UCLA.

 

I just think a good coach makes mediocre talent good and good talent great. I just haven't been impressed with Lake's ability to get a player to the next level and feel that he needs to be held accountable in spite of his status as a Steeler great. Our secondary's failures cannot be denied and we really haven't seen a DB step it up as a result of being coached up. One question maybe someone can help answer. What role does Lake play in the evaluation process for college talent? I would think that he would have a say in the Steelers selection of Terry Hawthorne, Shaq Richardson, Shamarko Thomas, Gerald Hollimon, Doran Grant et al.

 

No, but when the talent is lacking, it can easily be denied that it's the coach's fault. And we all agree the talent is lacking.

I don't see how you can make the claim that our secondary's successes are not due to coaching, but their failures are.

I gave you a few names in another post - notably McCain and Gay - guys who played much better after being coached by Lake, compared to how they played before. I can't guarantee he was the reason, but it makes a lot of sense. Meanwhile, where are the opposite examples? Who has struggled under Lake and then thrived elsewhere? All the guys that failed under Lake failed with everyone. If a good coach could fix them, wouldn't they be starting somewhere else by now?

I do give him partial blame for drafting poorly, but there are a couple of big asterisks that goes with that. 1) He gives input, but Colbert drafts players. I'm sure Tomlin also has at least as much input as Lake. 2) It's not necessarily easy to draft when you're stuck in the 5th round. Maybe he'd do better with higher picks. Most 5th rounders across all positions across the league don't do well. You pointed to our success in the mid rounds with receivers, but... that's unparalleled success, and we are revered across the league for it. That's not really fair, that's like being disappointed that Terry Hawthorne didn't turn out to be Rod Woodson.

Let's wait and see how Golson and Grant turn out.

 

And I'll keep asking the question until I get the answers I want!

All I know is that our secondary basically sucks year after year and we don't seem to develop our young DBs. Who is responsible? If there is no accountability there can be no improvement!

 

That's a normal feeling, but most people direct it toward the GM. Problem is, our GM is mostly really good. He just stinks in this one regard.

On the bright side, for a long time he foolishly ignored the OL. He learned his lesson and invested. Now we've got Pouncey, Gilbert, Beachum/AV, DeCastro... one of the best units. Last year he took a big step going with 2 DBs in 4 rounds, and he flat out said, "We were going to draft a CB in round 2." A lot is riding on Golson, for sure, but I think the DB situation officially has Colbert's attention.

Whether they draft a CB high this year probably depends on how they feel about Golson and Grant. But I bet they absolutely draft a safety in the top 3 rounds.

 

Coaching is overrated and I'll tell you why.

Von Miller had 30 sacks his first two seasons? How much time did he have to absorb coaching?

Aldon Smith and Khalil Mack were the same.

How much NFL coaching has Marcus Peters received?

I think by now with the firing of Arians and the red zone struggles continuing and Arians excelling in AZ, and with Lebeau leaving to Tenn and the defense staying almost the same... that people would know not to scapegoat coaches.

 

I wonder if some of it has to do with both coaching and player's learning styles. Not all players take in information in the same way. Not all players respond to the same methods. Hence, some guys have done well under Lake, and others continue to just not 'get it'.

Some of that is on the coach, but I also wonder if our scouts/coaches are not so much bad at appraising talent, and it's more that they don't pay enough attention to the ways in which players are used to learning/have had success learning. By the time they hit the NFL, that's going to pretty embedded within a player's psyche.

All the other things count as well, of course - someone like Holliman, for example, was always a punt because of his tackling. Richardson was injured. And the fact that historically, CB and QB are the most neglected positions on the Steeler's roster.

 

As the Emperor use to say football is really not that complicated you block and you tackle.
Can you beat the man in front of you? We (Steelers) have to get to the next level with these db's
I loved Carnell Lake as a player, The Steelers have for a long time not been able to evaluate the cb/safety position (This is an organizational issue).Hence their dabble into FA, I will say this I think Art II better see something out of this group or Carnell Lake will not be
employed by Black & Gold for long. (FALL GUY)

(Troy) see can you beat the man in front of you. The Steelers moved up to take this premier player. Quick question why did we not see Boykin/Golden play more football for the Pgh Steelers this year?

 

That's the question in a nutshell.

Golden may have not been perfect, but he had the younger legs to make up for when he made a mistake.

Blake was out there one armed trying to make tackles, because they kept throwing him on the field when it made no sense and even a layman could tell he was hurt.

Why do coaches make these decisions? Remember the Play-off game with RGIII. They guy was draggin his leg on every snap and couldn't move to save his life, but yet they kept trotting his butt out there!

 

his time here glenn. i'm not real sure who he had elsewhere but i do know he's been very successful anywhere he has coached an o-line. coaching can make a huge difference and we are reaping the benefits of that fruit at several positions. those long experienced coaches are making a difference and we are struggling at others where we don't have them. that's just what i'm seeing.

 

I was doing just fine until Mike Vrabel's name came up earlier in this tread. How sick that he went on to such a great career in NE. A few others got away as well who seemed to have extended careers e.g. Hardy Nickerson, Rod Woodson and Levon Kirkland. I suppose the Jets feel the same way about Farrier and the Rams about the Bus. Guess it all evens out.

 

Some good discussion and I respect the opinions I've read. Maybe it is our evaluatin process more than anything else. I guess the conclusion I'm leaning toward at this point is that it's probably not necessarily Lake's fault, BUT he's also nothing special as a secondary coach because there's really no shining example that can be cited where it's obvious that Lake's tutelage made the difference in a player. You can see it with Munchak's group but Lake just hasn't impressed me. He's just okay and I expected him to be a difference maker. Many have argued that Lake hasn't had any talent to work with, but look at what Munchak has gotten out of the likes of Wallace, Villanueava, Foster and others. He's gotten Gilbert to realize his potential. Why can't Lake get that out of Shamarko and Cortez. Like I said, we can blame the evaluation process and there's some truth in that, but Lake's nothing special as a coach and that's a disappointment.

 

I don't know you see the growth in Golden. It's only MT's refusal to let Allen go that keeps the younger safeties off the field. Hell I'd have taken a Dangerfield to see what he had come gameday.

Not saying Allen didn't play solid at times, but he made more mental mistakes this year and he just can't make up for those mistakes with physical skill when he does. I'd rather a younger guy make a mental mistake and learn from it than an older guy.

 

Lake kept Putting Blake back on the field burn after burn and kept Boykin on the bench because he didn't think Blake was playing poorly. That pretty well summed it up for me. 6 billion people on this planet could tell Blake wasn't the answer. Carnell could not.