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Organizational arrogance

Discussion in 'Steelers Talk' started by steelersrule6, Feb 28, 2015.

  1. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Archer had a better grade (5.52) than Gaines (5.24) and was projected to be drafted in rds 3-4 while Gaines was projected to go between 4-5. How on earth is Archer more of a reach than Gaines? Leave hindsight out of it, GM's that reach like that, will miss more often than not and be unemployed. And if Archer fulfills his potential, will it still be a bad pick? It takes 3 years to grade a draft, you know this.
     
  2. Steel_Elvis

    Steel_Elvis Staff Member Mod Team

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    A better grade by who? If I'm drafting, I'm going by my draft board not the one put together by some NFL network talking head. I agree that time will tell on Archer just like it will for every draft pick in the league, but I thought he was a reach in the 3rd at the time and still do. For me it's not hindsight, and just because someone at NFL network assigned him a 3rd - 4th round projection doesn't mean it was the Gospel.
     
  3. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    The grades generally are pretty close, Elvis, come on. CBS, Walter Football, NFL, I'm not talking about some bloggers opinion. It doesn't vary that much, he wasn't taken until the 6th rd, good bet that 32 teams had him graded around the same.
     
  4. blountforcetrauma

    blountforcetrauma Well-Known Member

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    What exactly will you consider like "panning out" or whatever for Archer? I think if we can find out a way to use him in the passing game or maybe he learns to return pro kicks will be the best we can hope for. I don't expect him to pass protect or be good coming out of the backfield. I don't think we drafted him for that either though. I don't see us EVER relying to heavily on him coming out of the backfield because Bell is such an every down type of guy. I mean remember that stat in the Cincy game where Bell hadn't had a rest in a TON of carries? That was when Harris came in and got his first carry. I think it's gonna be hard to label Archer a "bust" though since it wasn't like he was projected to a be a world beater or anything. My main problem with that pick has always been that I felt it was too early to take a guy like that when we had so many needs on defense. I'm not a draft guru or any of that though so mine is literally just an opinion. I wouldn't even consider it an "educated guess" because I don't keep up with college at all.
     
  5. Steel_Elvis

    Steel_Elvis Staff Member Mod Team

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    Well, what can I say. They were wrong and I was right. its not the first time. Maybe I should be a GM ;) However, I hated the Bell pick a few years ago, and I was more than slightly off on that one... so maybe not.
     
  6. lloyddestroy

    lloyddestroy Well-Known Member

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    Exactly right. What if our projections are more accurate than a scout or talking head's board? Then who is right?
     
  7. lloyddestroy

    lloyddestroy Well-Known Member

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    Well, if he became a good KR that would be a start. If he remains terrible at that, then I would consider him to pan out if he gets 5-10 touches a game and makes some plays. If he could add 50 yards of offense a game, then I'd be OK with it.
     
  8. blountforcetrauma

    blountforcetrauma Well-Known Member

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    As bad as I thought the Archer pick was I don't even think it so much as holds a candle to the Landry pick. For me, personally, I think the Landry pick is maybe not the "worst" but definitely the biggest "waste" of a pick in a loooong time.
     
  9. lloyddestroy

    lloyddestroy Well-Known Member

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    It's a round latter. In the 4th, it's a coin flip, but the more I look into what was know about Jones at the time, the more I think it was just a terrible pick. He can't throw the ball with any accuracy....that's kind of like a huge part of being a QB. The Sweed, Sepulveda, Hood and Bruce Davis bother me more. Actually, the Mendenhall pick was much worse than most note. He was never a first round talent back.
     
  10. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    Maybe! Go post your results in the thread I started for last years mock draft and we'll see :smiley1:

    For what its worth, I liked Gaines and wanted to take him in the 5th, would have been an even better spot, at least Archer still has a shot to contribute :facepalm:
     
  11. Steel_Elvis

    Steel_Elvis Staff Member Mod Team

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    Just did it, and FWIW I took EJ Gaines for the Rams in the early 3rd. I had a high grade on him.
     
  12. lloyddestroy

    lloyddestroy Well-Known Member

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    And 6 QBs were rated higher than Tom Brady in 2000. Not a single one is even in the NFL, and only one even had any significant playing time in the league (Chad Pennington).
     
  13. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    I understand but my point is, fans can reach, they have nothing to lose, generally GM's that reach, put together rosters like the Raiders. Had this been real, Elvis would look like a draft savant but I bet if a GM continued to bet against player grades, theyd lose more often than not. No one ever would have taken Brady in the 1st in a million years and he is clearly a first rd talent.

    I like Gaines, he seems to have dropped because of size concerns, that was a good call by Elvis to over look that.
     
  14. lloyddestroy

    lloyddestroy Well-Known Member

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    I understand it's a combination of not using too high a pick if you know you don't need to, and balancing that out with not risking losing a player you really like.
     
  15. steelersrule6

    steelersrule6 Well-Known Member

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    Nobody was drafting Archer in the 3rd he was rated as a 5th rd prospect, so they reached for him too.
     
  16. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    He was predicted to go 3-4. So, no reach. And as I said, better grade. We know for a fact that Gaines didn't get drafted until the 6th, don't know how you make a statement that no one was drafting Archer.
     
  17. SteelTerp

    SteelTerp Well-Known Member

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    The pass defense sucks yes. We played one of the easiest schedules in the NFL last year and couldn't defend the pass well all season
     
  18. lloyddestroy

    lloyddestroy Well-Known Member

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    We made rookies and journeymen look like Dan Marino circa 1984.
     
  19. PWP

    PWP Well-Known Member

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    The game has changed and we knew it was changing . We have been saying we wanted some press CB'S yet we never made a true effort to get them . If you can't play press in at least 1 spot any D you play will get exposed.

    The Team will need to change the way they value the position and change the back bone of the Defense . In a passing league with all rules to favor the passing game that needs to be the approach . A D that can play tough coverage and stop the run as well .Not a D that stops the run at all cost then tries to defend the pass . Those days are all ,but gone.
     
  20. Steel_Elvis

    Steel_Elvis Staff Member Mod Team

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    Thanks for the compliment on my drafting prowess ;) The funny thing about Gaines' size is that he is only 5'10", but I recall his arms being long for a 5'10" guy, and that helped him cover bigger receivers. The other piece of that is his strength. I don't recall any official bench press number, but on tape he played with great functional strength to redirect receivers and set the edge in run defense. He is only 5'10" and under 200 lbs., but has traits of 6' 210 lb. corners.

    On your point in the first paragraph, when you mention draft "grades" it seems like you're taking the generic draft analyst grades and interpreting them as gospel. Each team will have their own draft grades, and those are the ones that they should live by. In addition to trusting your own internal evaluation over the media analyst grades, there's individual scheme fit and need to consider. When I do player grading, I look at them from the prism of our schemes. I may score a good 1st round 3 technique as a 2nd or 3rd round prospect because the fit isn't there.
     
  21. FeartheBeard

    FeartheBeard Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I will agree with this. We need a CB and I think we need to draft it early but I wouldn't say that its arrogance that is preventing us from doing that.
     
  22. lloyddestroy

    lloyddestroy Well-Known Member

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    And the above truths are why I was glad Dick would not be back at DC. He was resistant to changing. And, how come - in the few games we tried - our DBs playing press worked, but then they would go back to 7 yards off the receiver? NO ONE can tell me why you play 7 yard off the WR when they are inside the 5 yard line. Even Phil Simms was LAUGHING at that strategy. No one can explain that one.
     
  23. turtle

    turtle

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    IIRC, the other Gaines in the draft last year was Phillip Gaines out of Rice and he was drafted sometime after Archer but before Martavis Bryant. He was a higher rated prospect than EJ on most sites. I think he went to the Chiefs.
     
  24. Blast Furnace

    Blast Furnace Staff Member Mod Team

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    :thumbs_up:

    Well, not gospel, teams certainly can have different grades but I think for the most part, players generally go in the rounds they are projected too or close to it.
     
  25. Steel_Elvis

    Steel_Elvis Staff Member Mod Team

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    Yeah, I remember watching tape on Philip Gaines and being less impressed. He was a good athlete and played the position smoothly, but I didn't see nearly enough willingness to get physical. At least that's how I recall him.
     

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