Elite QB????

I understand why people don't consider him "elite"... He has to contend with arguably the best QB ever to play in Manning, as well as Brady, Brees, and Rodgers putting up numbers in their pass happy offenses. Ben's career attempts per game is significantly lower (5-7 APG) than the aforementioned "elite" QB's, and will never put up the same quality of numbers as they will. Those 80-95 attempts per season are the difference between passing for 4000 yards or 4700 yards. Those yards add up big time over a career.

What Ben does have going for him is a different (and even entertaining) style of play. He has created a highlight reel that not only includes clutch throws in big moments (SB 43), but crazy plays where he avoids multiple defenders only to throw a strike downfield. Plus he has more rings (for now) than Manning, Brees, and Rodgers. If he manages to play into his late 30's, which I think is very likely, he will definitely have a good enough resume to get in. Maybe not first ballot, but I think he is in for sure if he keeps playing at a high level for the next 5-7 years

 

:-D

 

This is pretty much where I am too. I think in my eyes Ben has done enough to be HOF worthy, but I can definitely see how others might not feel that way from watching him as often as Steeler fans do. That is why I think another 4-5 years of good to great play is needed for him to be a no doubt HOF inductee. Also not to throw a "Yogi-ism" into things, i.e. in reference to Yogi Berra, but for a guy who is so inconsistent, he sure is consistent. And I guess what I mean by that is during the flow of a season, Ben seems to have those 3-4 games where you shake your head a bit and say what happened there or what was he thinking - but when the season is over and over the long haul Ben always seems to be pretty dependable for some very solid to good numbers every year. And that is why as year after year that seems to pass and you see the numbers he is accumulating it is going to be pretty tough to keep him out.

 

One thing that will always be held against Ben is his "off the field actions." I know he was never charged for anything and it's very unfair but this is a political world we live in. Even in football.

 

Manning has consistently choked in the post season and Brady has consistently done nothing since spygate, mean while Ben has been to three super bowls and won two of them.

 

As for the HOF, I believe he will make it. What will depend on whether he makes it is how long he plays. My point, he is younger than Manning, Brady, and Brees. So, if he plays 2 or 3 years after they leave, they will already be in and he won't be competing against them. Thus, voters will look at Ben versus who is soon coming. That would be E. Manning, Rodgers, and Flacco. Now don't get me wrong, it hurts to type Flacco's name and I don't think about him as a potential HOF'er. But, he has a strong winning percentage and he along with Rodgers could potentially both get to 100 wins in 150 as well. Plus they have both won a superbowl. Eli has two. So, if your strongest argument for Ben is his winning percentage along with rings, well they have them too. What will voters consider then? Certainly if Ben get's a 3rd ring, the argument is over. But if the other guys get a second ring, the field could become crowded.

 

If your point is that either of these two won't make it, you must be smoking some pretty strong stuff. If your point is they have flaws, and so does Ben, I'm not so sure their flaws won't be largely overshadowed by their positives. Brady, while not winning a ring has put up 12+ win seasons every year since spygate except for 2009, when he had 10 wins. With 3 rings already, I think your point is invalid. Thank Goodell for destroying the tapes so that we truly don't know what was on them. Peyton has one season with less than 12 wins since 2002.

 

Manning has had few since joining the Broncos, but before 2010 he had quite a few abortions per season when he was with the Colts. Looking back at game logs and both Brady and Manning consistently have on average 3 to 4 stink bombs per year. And by stink bombs, Im talking a rating of <80. Ben isn't much worse. I think not living in those cities or being a fan of those teams have a lot to do with it. If you're not following closely you tend to gloss over their subpar games.

People who say Ben lacks consistency either are too young or simply forget the King of Inconsistency, Kordell Stewart.

 

You touch on a point I was going to make.

In 10-15 years after Manning and Brady have long been retired and inducted into the HOF, we will without a doubt look back and see that they were 2 of the 5 best QBs of ALL TIME. Ben has had the luck of a career that is pretty much going to run concurrently with those guys.

If Ben were 10-12 years older and started in 1992-1994 his biggest competition would have been Aikman and Young. Both really good HOF worthy guys, but not on the level of Brady and Manning. IMO they're closer to Brees and Roders. Oh and that Elway guy too. But consider that if the Steelers had Ben on those 90s Cowher teams, they most certainly would have won at least 1, if not 2 SBs. And one of those would have probably been SB 32 where Kordells 3 picks lost the AFCCG and allowed Elway to get his first SB win.

IMO Ben is really overshadowed by those and playing in the same conference has been the cause of his lack of Pro Bowl appearances. With those two both in the AFC there is pretty much one PB spot open per season.

 

Agreed. And if a certain someone involved with a double homicide could now be a prime time NFL game personality...

 

I think Rodgers is already a guy who many see as a guy who could become the greatest of all time or within the Top 5. Eli has a pretty good chance with the two rings and though Eli has thrown a lot of picks, he has also thrown for a lot of yards and a lot TDs. Flacco, I beg to differ, he has a lot of work to do - he wins, but Flacco really has terrible stats, I don't think he has even had one season yet where he has finished above a 90 QB rating.

Another guy worth mentioning is Philip Rivers. I know a lot want to slam him, but that guy has been good. He probably needs a couple of good playoff runs, but he has had a very good career and he too will likely be in the Top 10 yardage wise and in TDs by the time he retires. And he may be in the Top 5 in QB rating.

Other guys coming up the ranks who look good and we should keep our eyes on are Andrew Luck and Russell Wilson.

 

Hes elite. Not the best but deserves to be among them at the table. None of these current QBs of elite status would've made it through the first half behind the lines Ben has played with.

I honestly think the snubbing comes from the fact that he's just not black enough... Cant imagine how Russell is gonna feel a few years down the road... Poor Wilson!

 

With the way the game has changed and the way it favors the QB and the receivers, I have a hard time putting as much value on what Manning and Brady have accomplished. Because they haven't had to deal with the punishment that QBs used to take and the way it must have gotten into your head I give a bit more respect to guys like Bradshaw, Staubach, Montana, Marino, and Elway. I look at Brady and Manning as Top 10 but I have a hard time putting them above those guys.

Also - just my opinion - I get why Aikman is in the HOF because of the 3 Super Bowl wins, but I really never thought he was that great of a QB and I think he benefitted strongly playing behind with the best OL of all time.

 

Labeling a QB "elite" is merely something the media made up...who cares what they say and where they put players...

 

I was actually telling someone the other day that if THIS offense could have been matched with the 08 defense we would be a dynasty again. Ben is elite. Period. Of all the guys that are considered "elite" that are playing today how many of them have MULTIPLE Super Bowl rings? Only Brady. OH.... and that other guy....what's his name??? OH YEAH! Ben Roethlisberger! That's it! Also Ben's playoff record is great as well. Ben can play when it counts.

 

I am not trying to make a point at all. I just saw it as an opportunity to bash the golden boys of the NFL. In all honesty it sickens me to see this ridiculous love affair that people have when it comes to these two. It sickens me even more when it comes from Steeler fans. Ben is my QB and that is where my loyalty lies. I could give a rats ass about the two prima donna's. When either of them can take a broken nose from Suggs and still win the game then they might be worthy of a little praise, or if either one of them could have survived behind the line that Ben had to endure much of his career. I like how you made all of these assumptions about my comment, and you even came to their defense with stats and all....but would you do the same for Ben?

 

I think the reason the other guys get so many accolades is because they are more of the traditional style of qb. I don't think of Ben as a "scrambler" in reality. I think he has had to do it out of necessity throughout his career. It has given people the illusion that Ben can't walk up to the line and read a defense and that he basically is just sorta "wingin' it" or whatever. If anyone honestly thinks that a professional qb can't read a defense they are seriously delusional. People thought that about Tebow and he did a film breakdown with Mooch on NFL Network one night and Mooch was blown away by his understanding of schemes. That's a guy that was pretty much universally panned. So how crazy is it to think that BEN can't read a d but TEBOW can? You see what I'm saying?

 

The whole "is he elite or isn't he" debate is something for us fans to banter about when things are slow, even throwing in Manning and Brady and the rest is just to make other fans jealous or too prove some sort of point about success that isn't measured by actual success. Bottom line most times when the chips are down Ben is one heck of a competitor and the guy you want on your team leading the offense. He has proven it time and time again and I honestly believe had they not lost to the Packers this discussion would have been moot, however I think the whole "elite" thing led to his downfall in that SB. I have said it before I think he wanted to be in that conversation, the one where they talk about the elite QB's in the league and honestly be in it not as an after thought. I think they may have led BA and Ben to present a gameplan where instead of attacking with the run against a team with a poor rushing defense they presented one that would showcase Ben and attacked where the Packers would least expect it in the passing game. It was a gamble, if it works Ben is SB MVP and the winner of three rings, second only to Bradshaw in many Steelers fans eyes and more importantly should be placed at the top of the elite QB chart, instead he throws a pick six, another pick and in the end lacks the receiving talent he did against the Cards to help him bring the team back once again. I think if he just doesn't care about the conversation anymore he will play like he did Sunday and he will find himself as the conversation stopper that he wants. Just my take on it.

 

I think about that pick 6 all the time. It is one of the plays that I think of when I consider how much I really disliked BA. It is phenomenally stupid to call that play in that situation with that offensive line. I get irritated just thinking about it. I also agree that if we had ran the ball more we would have won.

 

If Lebeau would've played his secondary against the pack the way he did Brady the following season, we would've smashed the pack.

 

You make an excellent point, here.

 

I think we are in total agreement, what hurts Ben is that the field will be crowded. Do I believe he will make it? Yes I do, first ballot. But I've been wrong before. Left up to me, Bettis would already be in the HOF. So, if Ben were to not make it, it would be because of crowded field with a few more coming. Though I would say Russell Wilson has many years to go before he can enter that conversation. The fact that some sub-elite guys have won the superbowl (Eli, Flacco, Wilson) may cheapen Ben's rings. Thus, the voters may look at criteria not as important, such as yards, TD's, Pro Bowls, etc.

 

Joe Theisman
Jim Plunkett
Jim McMahon
Phil Simms
Jeff Hostetler
Doug Williams
Mark Rypien

All second tier SB winning QBs who won during the Montana/Aikman/Elway winning years (82-99).

 

honestly, I thought Theisman was HOF, but then I remember he only won one Super Bowl. http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/positions.aspx
I was surprised to see there are more modern era offensive linemen than QB's