DL. its been nice, but its time to go

I'm going to bow out of this one. Didn't mean to make you so upset.

 

Fair enough!

 

Cowher and his staff seemed to do a pretty good job of getting the most out of marginal talent and developing young players. Tomlin and staff DO NOT seem to be doing that at this point!

 

My biggest criticism of Cowher was that he could always get us on the precipice of the promised land but couldn't get us over the top. How many AFC Championship games did the Steelers lose under Cowher? Too many! But Cowher's teams, in spite of a couple of lackidaisical seasons, seemed to always be advancing toward the prize. The young players seemed to be developing properly. Tomlin's young guys just don't seem to be improving and in some cases they're regressing. Cowher had his faults, but you usually felt like his teams had passion and purpose when they took the field and he was always at a disadvantage at the quarterback position.

 

This is the filthiest thing I've read on this board in a long time.

 

well Thig

if

toffee or after eight mints had fit into this discussion


I would have said that

now,

CAN YOU PASS THE JELLY?

 

I Love Cowher and would much rather still have him rather than Tomlin, but that isn't going to happen!

 

Without much comment, Lipps, Everett, Mularkey, never played a down for Cowher. They all left after Noll's last season. And Nickerson and Ilkin were only around for 1 season under Cowher.

Guys you forgot were Greg Lloyd, John Jackson, Niel O'Donnell ... obviously, and Justin Strzelczyk.

 

People like Cowher because he yelled and had an ego that played well with "physical Steelers football". That mentality probably doesn't win in today's league. I'd rather have strategy oriented coaches than drill master coaches. Fun factbit, Bruce Arians was known to do a lot of the strategy for the team (offense) when he was here. He was known for that in Indy, and obviously in Arizona. Not knocking Haley, because I dont really mind him right now, but BA left us with a big void to fill in terms of preparation, and I'm not sure we have filled it. Tomlin is not a strategy oriented coach. Whiz was.

 

Since this has evolved into a Tomlin discussion...my two cents. My biggest problem with Tomlin is it just seems to me that that the "tail wags the dog w/him." With Noll and Cowher it was their teams, the teams had an identity. Cowher was known as an emotional rah rah guy, but he did have a clear strategy for winning, he believed in a chaotic defense and a running game that would pound you into the ground. He implemented this approach for years and somewhat to his fault as he never did seem to put enough priority into developing a good QB and he seems a bit lucky that Ben came along...I know this could turn into a side discussion as O'Donnell was a pretty decent QB and who knows if he would have stuck around for a few more years.

I always felt Tomlin was the right guy at first because he had a greater sense of calm that I think helped the Steelers in those SB runs...he deserves credit for that. Let's face it Cowher always seemed like his butt was tight enough to poop out a diamond in big games, Tomlin wasn't really that way. But now that the team needs some re-building, a greater emphasis on forming an identity he doesn't seem to be a guy who can lay down his mark on the team. I still think some of it is he is a bit hand-tied and that the Rooneys have been steering the wheel with him. I think we all know Arians (which I applauded) exiting wasn't his decision and I think LeBeau is given a great amount of autonomy with the defense even though Tomlin coached defense at his prior assignments. If this year turns out bad and Tomlin is fired (which I doubt), I think the ironic thing is he will never had really had a chance to implement what he wanted to do...which makes you wonder if the Rooneys and others have not given him the chance or they see something in him where they say, this guy doesn't seem to know what he wants to do.

Also - one other point - folks can talk about down years with Cowher, but with Tomlin it is a little less acceptable because he has a franchise QB. With a franchise QB you shouldn't be missing the playoffs for multiple years in a row. When that happens, coaches get fired like in San Diego.

 

I think it is time as well . Not to sound like a know it all ,but I remember the game changing with the different Offensive sets . As a coach I remember the multiple RB'S changing to multiple WR'S ..Offenses where the QB was on a spot , Offenses that started running the spread with no real run threat...

Now this thing has evolved into an attack the D with the run and with the pass type of a thing. On the High School level I have seen this all before.We tried many ways to stop it and to slow it and none of which started with 3 down DL.

The most effective is 4 or 5 DL and not all these LB'S . It is simple math LB'S are to small to take on OL 1 on 1 which is what happens in a 3-4. Then in the passing game LB'S are a bad match up for RB'S or TE'S , so what true value do they really have stopping the multiple WR spread option looks or stopping the run or getting pressure on the QB ? The answer is very little .

The true answer is a Defensive front with enough guys with the meat to cover up your LB types. And true Athletes at the CB position on the outside to match up with all types of pass catchers. Guys who can cover speed, size , or agility and guys with any combo of those. ie WR'S ,RB'S ,TE'S and such . See this is the design of these type O'S to identify the mis match pre snap and exploit it. And as sad as this is to say against our current D they can pick or choose whatever they want..

As a Team as a whole until we learn the value of a LB vs. the value of a CB or a DL against the new NFL we as a Defense will always be behind. IMO a coach change would be the fastest way to reevaluate how we evaluate.

 

If the Steelers miss the playoffs and go 7-9 or 8-8, then they probably should replace both Haley and LeBeau somebody has to take the fall. I'm not giving up on Tomlin yet let him finish his contract out until 2016, then if he doesn't get it turned around and get the team back in the playoffs then get rid of him.

 

Fixed it for ya!

 

We are in our 3rd year in a row of abysmal ability to create turnovers. We had <20 the past 2 years and have 0 this year. 0! 3 sacks in 2 games is pretty awful as well.

DL apologists can point to our yardage totals but it's really an inferior metric when you consider we cannot stop the opponent when it counts, cannot create/capitalize on opponents mistakes and cannot get into the playoffs with an elite QB

 

When are you people going to get this, it's a team freaking sport. It doesn't matter if you have an elite qb if you don't have the rest of the parts.

 

I think SteelTerp is simply implying that when you have a franchise QB, then that alone gives you a major advantage over a lot of teams meaning you don't necessarily have to be outstanding in many other phases of the game. The defense just needs to be more competent and make some plays (namely sacks and turnovers) and they will start making a contribution.

 

The reason we don't create turnovers is because we cannot pressure the QB or stop the run, which is because our defensive line is very very bad. We don't have a real nose tackle, first round pick Hood was bad and is gone, first round pick Heyward is good but not a game changer yet, Cam Thomas shouldn't even be on the team, and Keisel is old....which is sad that he is also our second best defensive lineman..

We swung and missed big with finding replacements for Hampton and Smith. Now we must suffer the consequences.

And nobody dare attempt to say that its because our CBs are not elite. We won Super Bowl XL with young and unproven Ike Taylor, Willie Williams, and Deshea Townsend as our CBs....nothing there screams elite. We did however, have a really good front seven.

 

I still don't fully agree on the DL issue. I agree they are not as stout as what we have been used to. But the issue has more to do with how defenses are attacking the Steelers via the run. Penetration doesn't matter as much when the OL is moving to an area and blocking a specific portion of the line. When that happens you need your DL to more adaptable and agile to shed blocks, not lose their footing and be able to turn the RB more to the inside where your LB are ready to make plays. Cam Thomas really stinks and he has been a big problem, but so has Worilds who is making like no tackles. Also Timmons and Shazier seem confused and are not maintaining gap control like they should. The other thing about zone blocking is it requires your DL to be athletic enough to move with how the field is being stretched, if one guy falls (like Thomas) then it can easily become like a domino effect with the rest of your guys hitting the turf as well and the RB is off to the races.

Not a lot of teams run zone blocking or stretch blocking - but more teams will probably start to implement it seeing Philly's success. The Texans ran it well and a few years ago with Casey at NT they gouged the Steelers for over 150 yards in a game down in Houston. I am not saying the DL has been good, they have stunk too. The only guy playing okay is McLendon, Heyward has been a disappointment thus far too, but really the whole defense has stunk.

 

Our defensive linemen of years past used to be able to get sacks themselves. Hayward might get one now and then, but the others simply won't. And they were also able to tie up blockers to let our linebackers in. Not now.

 

Good call- the league hasn't changed at all since then. No rules have been added, historic passing numbers have not been set and the most recent super bowl teams ('14 DEN/SEA, '13 SF/BAL) justifiably ignored the position!

 

Thank you, even though strummerfan cherry picked a portion of my entire care, my point stands- if you have an elite QB, over a 3 year period you should expect to make the playoffs, unless the D is massively underperforming. Perhaps we can look beyond the simple "yards allowed" metric and critically evaluate our DC's performance. Without pretending like it's still 2005.

Turnovers are typically one of the few stats that vary enormously year to year. Teams that have a poor turnover margin typically regress to the mean the next year. Except we have yet to experience that regression. Thus, scheme can be legitimately called into question!

 

LOL. All those Teams stock DB'S the way we stock LB'S.

 

If you look at sack stats for the DL 08 through 11 when I guess things were still considered good Hampton, Jones (1 year there Hood replacing Jones), and Kiesel - they averaged together about 7-8 sacks a year. For 12 and 13 when Heyward starting rotating in full time with Hood, Kiesel, and McLendon the line averaged about 8-9 sacks. Ziggy Hood actually was pretty good rushing the passer he was crummy against the run. Of course he wasn't really a 0 or 1 technique lineman which makes you wonder why the Steelers ever drafted him. Heyward had 5 sacks last year.

This basically brings me to the original point of this posting....maybe just maybe we have D Coordinator and head coach who aren't keeping up with the times and not adapting well enough to how offenses have been changing. And by saying that I am not putting all the blame on LeBeau, but seriously his teams have look awfully bad and unprepared for these teams that stretch the field when they rush the ball or get the ball out fast via the pass.