Joey Porter Jr contract negotiations

How many picks did Sauce Gardner have in his first 3 seasons? How does it compare to Porter?

I'd suggest looking at all of their metrics. They are similar. Gardner was better. But there isn't a massive difference.

QBs avoid good CBs. Which is good because it takes away a good receiving option.

With Porter we benefit from the probowl being stupid. And from there being other very good CBs with more name recognition in the conference.

We'll be having this same conversation about Frasier next year BTW. He's a very good center. Worthy of being a probowl player. But doesn't have one because of the other guys in the conference.

And for people who remember things, the same argument was made about Ben. He did make 6 probowls in 18 years. But that's not really a reflection of how good he was. It's that Brady was in the conference for basically all of his career. As was either Manning or Mahomes. The SA allegations also likely hurt him in "tie breakers".

 

Question is whether you treat 2025 as the norm, or was it an aberration?

 

Thats a solid point. I personally think passes defended is the more important stat but people like the splash plays. I dont care if an outside CB never gets and INT(nice when it happens though) just make sure the reciever doesn't catch the pass. Too many guys who go for the pick and miss while giving up the catch and yardage after the fact. The Minnesota Miracle doesn't happen if the Saints defender tackles instead of going for the pick.

 

He didn't give up a td the year before, and penalties have dropped every year.
I don't know why this is hard my friend.
The guy hasn't given up a td in two years, and wasn't in the top 25 of penalties for a CB so people can't use that.
Its like some have already made their minds up about him. Hell if I was him, I maybe would look to get traded, but I hope he doesn't.

 

Devon Witherspoon the highest paid CB in the NFL at 33 million a year has 2 ints in his whole career, gave up 2 tds last year, and had 3 penalties last year.
JPJ will make 3,924,000 has 3 ints in his career, and gave up 0 Tds last year, and had 6 penalties last year.
See what Im getting at??
Yet somehow JPJ isn't worth it.

 

that's what i was saying 1 year is not a complete stat as far as ranking how much to pay one guy. prior to last year he was still very grabby and had many crucial penalties even if he wasn't the guy the other team ended up scoring TD's on. he signed the contract he should be on the field.

 

He's comparable to Witherspoon. So his market value is somewhere close to that $33mm/year in today's market.

It would be awesome if he signed for a big home town discount. But if he was interested in that, it would have already happened.

If he's trying to get substantionally more than $33.1mm, then I think he's asking for too much. Unless the guarantees / structure is team friendly. Personally, I think it's much better for the team to have a higher AAV if it buys them fewer guarantees and makes the deal more back-loaded. I'd always make that choice in the NFL where most of the contract won't be guaranteed because it gives you more flexibility to cut the player.

Which is exactly why I think players care more about guarantees than AAV.

 

sauce gardner was that good in college too. yet his draft team still traded him. besides that he doesn't play for the steelers and so far this year porter doesn't either, even though he is still under contract. so he want's paid for one good year. show me the money only works if you show us the right to earn it. right now he isn't.

 

The highest paid CB in the NFL, Devon Witherspoon at 33 million a year has 2 ints in his career, he gave up 2 tds last year, had 3 penalties.
JPJ is making 3,924,000 , he gave up 0tds last year, and 0 tds the year before, he has 3 ints in his career, and gave up 6 penalties.
LoL
Yet JPJ isn't worth it, make that make sense

 

I hope. LoL
Im getting tired of writing about it. LoL

 

How contracts work in the NFL is complex. And pretending that either of us knows more than Omar in that area is pretty silly IMO.

I haven't been here long, but here's what I've seen on this thread:

1. incorrect / outdated numbers about where the top 5 cb contracts are
2. proposed contract values that don't seem to account for inflation of the cap
3. proposed contract numbers that appear to be based on gut feeling rather than comps to other players (e.g. Witherspoon) or what the baseline for what the leverage the team has would be
4. confusion about how different types of guarantees are included in AAV

I'm sure there are things I believe about these points that are also incorrect. But I've tried to explain how I think they work instead of throwing out a number without justification beyond "this feels like the right number".

My intention isn't to try to tear you (or anyone else) down...except maybe Scribe on the specific issue of how statistics work, I probably made that more personal than I needed too (but again, but I did try to base all the info on facts).

 

Penalties:
Yr1 = 8
Yr2 =12
Yr3 =6

It's even more egregious if you look at how many times he was flagged.

Yr1 =12
Yr2 =17
Yr3 =9

Again, was 2025 an aberration?

 

I'm surprised that they waited this long on this one. Seemed clear that this was going to happen for a long time.

Kind of like how we're almost surely going to cut Harrison. But at least you let him play out the preseason.

I don't think we'll need much room to sign JPJ. His cap hit will probably go up, but not by much because the 1st year is cheap since most of the money he'll take home is SB which gets spread out over 4-5 years depending on length of the deal.

Most of this room will be for the cushion we like to take into the season (which carries into next year if we don't use it).

Earlier in the offseason, I think someone was comparing Pickens and DK based on the cap hit they had at that that moment. Which didn't make sense because cap hits on single year tags and long term deals work very differently. And because teams can dramatically change the cap hit on a long term deal like this without ever talking to the player.

 

did witherspoon hold in? porter is under contract. he also had 84 more tackles, 2 forced fumbles and 3.5 more sacks then porter, not to mention a super bowl ring. make that make sense.

 

Top paid CB Devon Witherspoon has 15 penalties in that same time, and has given up 10 tds.
So JPJ has 11 more penalties, and 9 less tds.
Do the math my friend.

 

He'll likely get a higher AAV (probably wants a touch more than witherspoon) and 2 years guaranteed (which we gave DK even though he never had an AP1...when our criteria for 2nd year guaranteed used to be franchise QB - Ben - or 1st team AP - Watt / Minkah).

Hard to know without being in the specific situation, but I think we'd all take an extra ~ $20-25MM if the cost was sitting around not doing much but dealing with negative publicity for a couple weeks.

 

Oh Witherspoon won that SB by himself. Well they aren't paying him enough.
I see you left off that Witherspoon has given up 10 tds in the same time that JPJ has only given up 1. So if Witherspoon can give up 10 tds in 3 years , and win a SB, imagine a guy that only gives up 1. LoL

 

oh i thought is was all about last year.

 

seattle can pay their guys whatever they want. i don't care about them. we have others to pay that have done more than look good for one year. porter still needs to earn his money but he has to play and practice like everybody else while still under his first contract. get his butt on the field.

 

I will try, but it will probably fall on deaf ears because people (reasonably) just don't like the obscene amounts of money that come from reasonable evaluations of a player's market value.

Porter had an extra pick, so Witherspoon is only +1 in turnovers generated.

Porter also allowed 10 fewer TDs, which is kind of a big deal for a CB. I like turnovers and sacks, these are impact plays that can turn a game one way or the other. But 1 turnover and 3.5 sacks isn't as valuable as 70 fewer points on the board.

Witherspoon has 2708 snaps, has seen 231 targets, given up 65.8% comp%, 1478 yards, 6.4 Y/target, 11 TDs, 2 INT.
Porter has 2672 snaps, seen 215 targets, given up 54.0% comp%, 1466 yards, 6.8 Y/target, 1 TDs, 3 INT.

I didn't look, but I assume Porter has more penalties and more penalty yardage allowed.

I think Porter is slightly better (despite the FFs and sacks where Witherspoon has the advantage). But I don't think it's unreasonable to argue that Witherspoon is slightly better. They are clearly comparable.

They are signing in the same year, so given that they are so similar they should sign similar contracts.

Witherspoon's deal sets the market for Porter whether we like it or not. It would be great if Porter took a sweetheart deal for the team. But in the NFL, he's now worth somewhere between $32-34MM / year...again structure >> AAV.

That's how much it will take to keep him (unless he decided to play undermarket, which most players reasonably won't do).

So the Steelers get to decide if they want to pay the market rate, or if they just want to run it out with the leverage they have (e.g., make him finish this year and tag him twice hoping that he just takes it instead of making a big PR nightmare out of it).

If they think he's on the edge of a huge decline like Bell, then don't sign the deal.

If they think he's going to be around the same or better, then they have to sign him at the market rate (or gamble that they can string him along 1 year at a time).

 

After my usual post draft hiatus, I am back. What's the thinking is this getting done?

I tend to think that we have been awful at corner for so long and haven't had anyone approaching elite since Ike "hands of stone" Taylor, and at 26 years old, we should probably pony up. In 2-3 years his deal is going to look decent value the way the market moves. It's giving the wrong players too much money that always seem to be the problem to me, he's been a model pro since he's been here, a lot of CB's end up being diva's I don't see this with him.

And what happens in '27 at the draft? - we just end up spending high draft capital hoping to hit the CB lottery again.

 

I don't know how much cap space we have, but we just restructured DK's contract and added 18 mil more......
I can only believe this move has JPJ in mind

 

This is where I'd tell young players follow Cousins example. If they tag you sign it and ball out that year. If the want to negotiate after signing say naw Im good. They tag you again, sign it and ball out so that when you do hit FA you can demand top dollar and then some. It also makes you look reasonable while you're at it.

 

UFA means it's a market.

You can say that your brick and mortar book store isn't Amazon, so you'll price things however you want.

Amazon sets the market price.

I agree that it sucks that the Witherspoon contract is as high as it is. I was hoping that we'd (1) sign Porter first or (2) Witherspoon would sign for less.

But this is how contracts work in the NFL. The guys who sign the newest contracts set where the market price is.

And it tends to stick. Though not always (LOL Browns with Watson).

Witherspoon reset the market.

But he won't be the biggest CB contract when the season starts. That should be Gonzalez.

Porter and Witherspoon are comparable. My guess is that Porters eventual deal (if he signs one...and I think he will) will be $0.1mm more than Witherspoon on AAV. Not because he's better necessarily (I think that argument could be reasonably made either way). But because he waited longer.

If the Steelers are trying to pay last year's prices on CBs, Porter won't sign and we'll let him walk (assuming he doesn't want to give a home town discount...and if he did, the deal would be done already IMO) .