Higher in the all-time list:Brees vs Ben?

You are forgetting the other half of the team. Imagine Roethlisberger playing with a bottom defense for half his career. Steelers playoff record the last decade tells you it doesn't always fall on the QB in the post season.

A more interesting question is how Roethlisberger would have looked in a Payton offense?

 

You are leaving off playing indoors, and playing outside.
You honestly think throwing the ball with no wind, no rain, and no cold is the same??
Again there are years Brees played when he didn't play more than 2 games a year outside, and that was in Tampa, and Carolina.
The best I can tell he played almost 80% of his games indoors. No freaking way that doesn't make a difference in passing

 

What does that have to do with playing with a lousy defense?

 

What does a lousy Defense have to do with saying Brees is better than Ben??
I do believe that the year the Saints actually won a SB they lead the league in turnovers on D. You know the thing that many on here told me isn't a big deal

 

I hate these arguments because I always end up sounding like I am trashing a genuinely great player like Brees. I think Brees was awesome. I just also think that Ben was awesome in a different way and under very different circumstances, conditions, and playing parameters.

We have some people here talking about stats and consistent individual greatness. That happens on one side of the ball.....the offensive side of the ball. The system a quarterback plays in, the coach, the conditions he plays in, the quality of the fields they play on, the footing receivers have, the wind and weather that affects the flight of the football.......it all matters. It is something that only happens on offense.

People can't talk about poor Brees and playing with bad defenses being the reason he didn't win more big games, and then anoint his greatness and point at his big numbers and say they weren't influenced and inflated because of the style they played while screaming that the reason Ben won more is because he had better defenses.

My comments explain why Ben's numbers weren't as good on the offensive side of the ball, but winning matters.

For years and years, the Steelers loved to play defense, run the ball, and have Ben make a play on third downs to continue drives. When all else failed, he would win the game with a last minute drive. He was as good or better at that as any quarterback that ever played. His ability to make plays in the 2-minute drill was elite. Like all-time great elite.

That wasn't the defense making those plays to win all those games late. That was the quarterback doing whatever it took to win the game. Brees was not in the same league as Ben with the last minute scores and comeback wins late. Ben had more of those wins, and he did it in less years than Brees and people here claim he did it as an inferior quarterback to Brees. How could Brees be the better player, but he couldn't put the big drive together to win more big games than Ben in an inferior conference for much of his career and in a better offense?

Nobody knows exactly how Ben would have played in Payton's offense, but my money would be on him being very successful.

In your quote above, you talk about the Steelers playoff record. You also talk about Brees' defenses compared to Ben's defenses. Have you seen the point totals that the Steelers have been allowing in the last decade with Ben? The Steelers defense has been getting paid huge money, putting up great regular season stats, and then underachieving in the playoffs. So maybe Ben didn't have the better defenses.

Brees' defense points allowed in the playoffs with the Chargers and the Saints:

Chargers: 20(one playoff game in 2004) Saints: 24, 39, 19, 28, 17, 41, 28, 36, 24, 23, 26, 29, 14, 26, 26, 9, 30

Drew Brees' defenses allowed opponents 25.5 points per game.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sdg/playoffs.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/nor/playoffs.htm


Ben's defense points allowed in the playoffs with the Steelers:

17, 41, 17, 18, 17, 10, 31, 24, 14, 23, 24, 19, 31, 29, 30, 16, 23, 12, 16, 36, 45, 48, 42

Ben's defenses allowed opponents 25.35 points per game. (rounded up from 25.3478)

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/pit/playoffs.htm

So Brees had to overcome the insurmountable 0.15 points per game than Ben did over their entire playoff careers.

You guys want stats? There are your stats. The entire point about Ben playing with far superior defenses in the playoffs is pretty much a myth based on the performance of the defenses in the playoffs and the average points allowed.

In leading his teams to 18 playoff games, Brees' defenses allowed 30 points or more 3 times.

in leading his team to 23 playoff games, Ben's defenses allowed 30 points or more 8 times.

It looks like Brees' defenses have overperformed in the playoffs.

It looks like Ben's defenses have underperformed more in the playoffs.

 

The question I was answering was why didn't Brees go to more post season games.

 

Roethlisberger was 0-8 when the defense allowed that 25+ pts in the playoffs. Brees was 3-7.

 

My bad then, and I apologize my friend

 

Ben was actually 0-9 in those games when the opponent scored 25 or more points. In those 9 losses, the Steelers defense allowed an average of 37 points. Who is winning a bunch of those games needing to score 37 points on average in the AFC against the defenses they play and in the weather most of those games are played? Maybe you can name them?

And Brees only needed to score more than 30 points 3 times in 18 games. Brees was also 0-5 when his opponents scored 29 points or more having high powered offenses and often playing in great weather or in a dome.

So what's your point? Brees was supposed to be a dominant player far superior to Ben. That's what you're arguing, isn't it?

Name the powerhouse teams keeping Brees from making more Super Bowls.

 

Not my argument at all. Never used 'dominant ' to describe Brees. Confusing me with another poster?

 

Maybe? I know AskQuestionsLater uses that description. You seemed to be arguing his points, so I thought that's where you were coming from. If not, I'm sorry about that.

You seem to be claiming that Ben played with better defenses, yet I showed you that both Brees' and Ben's defenses performed almost identically in the playoffs in points allowed with a difference of only .15 points per game.

So what are you saying? Do you think Brees is the better quarterback?

 

Joe Montana win only 1 playoff game when the defense gave up 25 points or more....It was in the catch I when the 49ers offense had 6 turnovers

And not every 30 points gave up are the same....Like in the game vs ravens in 2014,the ravens score 30 points and they did not score on only 2 drives.In the saints-49ers playoffs game in 2011,the 49ers score 36 points but the 49ers had also 8 punts and 1 turnover,so the 49ers(and the saints)had way more offensive drive that the ravens-steelers game in 2014.Same thing for the steelers-patriots game in 2016 when the pats score 36 points and they score on every drive outside of one in that game

 

Ben was incapable of winning in a shootout in the playoffs

 

Your question is a simple one. The answer for me isn't. In terms of pure football entertainment, Roethlisberger wins hands down,... creative, off-schedule play style.
In terms of a QB keeping an offense on schedule it's Brees,... systematic, efficient. Both end up in the HOF. Brees is considered a first ballot lock. Roethlisberger is less certain.

 

Brees wins 0 SBs if his defense doesn't generate as many turnovers in as many playoff games as the elite defense we had when we beat ARI.

He probably loses that game against the Vikings if their D doesn't generate 5 turnovers in that game (I wonder if anyone has ever pointed out that the QB who was most like Ben was Favre re: getting into and out of trouble...if anyone listens to Hardcore History, this is also an argument that Dan Carlin seems to be making about Alexander the Great).

If Ben's success gets discounted because of the D, Brees should also have his success discounted. And not just Brees, we'd want to look to see how much we should discount the championships of every QB if we do this for Ben.

What happens to Brady...how many of those SBs get discounted...and by how much? Especially the early ones.

The D was really important for Peyton Manning's SB with the Broncos. But how should we look at Manning's SB win with the Colts? When Manning won with the Colts, their D generated 13 turnovers in 4 playoff games!! Wildcard KC = 3; Divisional BAL = 4; AFCC NE = 1; SB CHI = 5!! That team gave up the 12th highest yards and 10th highest points in the league that year. But were they bad? Certainly not in the playoffs. And the scheme of that team (IIRC) was to get leads with Manning under center and harass the QB with Freeney when they had big leads...and even when they didn't have big leads, teams knew (or at least felt) like they needed to score a ton of points. So they would be super aggressive and take chances because they felt like they needed to score. So they either (a) scored a bunch of points (against the Colts) or (b) took a lot of chances that the D was able to capitalize on re: turnovers (like getting 13 turnovers in 4 games against some of the best teams in the league). Interestingly, they didn't get many turnovers in the regular season (21st ranked). My guess is that 13 turnovers in the playoffs has to be pretty close to the highest number by a D in the playoffs. But was this D good or bad?

 

Good thing Holmes wasn't!



"That's how you be great!!!"

Of course it doesn't count because the defense still had to stop them on the next drive.

In non-green font, we don't win this game without Harrison making a great pick and 9 of the other 10 guys on D making a block on the return (I think someone made 2 blocks...but can't remember who).

 

This is why Ben wins for me. And I think he had a stretch of years where he was a top 3 QB in the league where I think the argument is better than any argument for Brees to be a top 3 QB.

I don't Brees was ever really a top 2 QB in the league. Ben may have been in that early 5 year stretch, but it was really hard to be more than 3rd best for either of these guys.

To me Brees is more like Bettis (or a better version of Hines) than he is Ben. Very good for a very long time. Ben "burned brighter" when he was at his apex than Brees ever did across his career. But year-to-year, there may be more years where I would have taken Brees over Ben for an individual season (if I was playing in a "neutral" environment with a "neutral" scheme).

Maybe that's part of it too. I think it's easier to plug Brees into any system. I don't know if that's as true for Ben at his peak. I don't think you ever really wanted Ben to be throwing 40+ passes regularly. But if I was down by 4 with 1:30 left and one time out, I'm taking Ben in his prime over Brees.

The bold in your comment is the same reason Troy is better than Reed to me (even though Reed objectively has much better stats).

The reason Ben isn't a lock in the 1st ballot isn't because of on-field stuff.

And honestly, not putting Billy B in on the first Ballot really diminished the HoF in my eyes (even though I strongly dislike him).

 

Still no response from you about Reed vs. Troy

Stats

• Ed Reed: 64 INTs, 1590 Yards, 7 INT-TDs, 139 PDs, 11 FFs, 13 FRs, 2 FR-TDs, 6 sacks, 646 Tackles, 34 TFLs, 1 Sfty. 1x SB wins.

• Troy (the GOAT or at least the better player IMO): 32 INTs, 398 Yards, 3 INT-TDs, 107 PDs, 14 FFs, 7 FRs, 2 FR-TDs, 12 sacks, 783 tackles, 56 TFLs, 0 Sfty. 158 games. 2x SB wins.

Awards

• Reed: 9x PB, 5x A1, 1x DPOY
  
• Troy: 8x PB, 4x AP1, 1x DPOY

I assume that you now concede that your argument re: Ben somehow shouldn't apply to Troy?

If you apply my argument to both guys, you (probably) get Troy and Ben. But there's more subjectivity.

Your argument (which is more objective), then you always get Brees and Reed. No room for context.

Or maybe you just think Troy wasn't as good as Reed?

 

Nope. Was busy. A number of items needed my attention.


As to the answer of the question?! Ed Reed is universally ranked higher than Troy. That much I cannot deny. Both are First Ballot HOFers but Reeds statistics exceed Troy's. Keep in mind that while both did completely different things, that doesn't matter in terms of stats along with what the overall verdict is between the two.


Regardless, applying the Troy vs Ed debate is equivocation as Big Ben wasn't never ranked as high of a QB during his time compared to Troy in terms of him being ranked as a Strong Safety. For the Troy vs Ed debate, you need to apply numbers for both were best at their respective positions. Ed was the best Free Safety while Troy was the best Strong Safety.


Brees vs Big Ben is completely different. One was dominant. One seldom was.

 

Interesting, I assumed you'd think Troy was better.

 

Do you now see how player vs player works?!


Dominance determines ranking. Rankings are shaped by the amount of dominance a player has. Stats and achievements allow us to rank those who are of either similar or exact ranking as either lesser or greater. For example, Johnny Unitas, Joe Montana and Tom Brady are constantly debated as who is the GOAT. Super Bowls (or Championships) help but they alone cannot be the decoding factor. Have to include all variables.


I have been consistent with this narrative throughout. Big Ben was a very good QB. Brees was a Great one. Here is the major aspect you seem to have missed within all of this; at what point did I ever say Big Ben isn't HOF worthy?!


Two things can be true;


1.) Big Ben will be inducted into the Pro Football HOF.

2.) Drew Brees was the more dominant of the two.

 

My point is with few exceptions wins are a team stat, not a QB stat. Cannot look at one without considering the other. The last team with a lousy defense to win a SB was the NYG against none other than NE.

 

Even today if You take the off field things out of it, very few teams are taking Brees over Ben to start a team.

 

True but they were able to step up in the playoffs...In 2011,the giants gave up 56 points in 4 playoffs game