Higher in the all-time list:Brees vs Ben?

Pick your stat:

 

What do you mean when you say dominant? I don't think either of these guys were dominant QBs. Although Ben had a multiple season stretch where he was probably in that conversation. But QB dominance in today's NFL is Tom Brady or Pat Mahomes.

If you just mean more passing yards and TDs, why do you think that's "success" if it doesn't lead to more wins and more championships? Also...if you really value passing yards, maybe look at playoff passing yards? Ben has 5,972. That's more than

Brees. Of course the rate stats are probably more important ant Brees wins here. But what does it tell you when Ben has more passing yards in the playoffs despite throwing fewer passing yards per game? It's because Ben got to more playoff games (despite playing in a harder conference).

And why does quality of team mates matter to you, but quality of opposition in the conference doesn't?

You say that players don't get to choose their team mates. And this is true. But your argument seems to imply that players do get to pick their offensive schemes.

• Do you think that Ben would have had the same individual stats if he was playing for an offensive minded coach like Payton instead of very defensive minded guys like Cowher/Tomlin?
• And if Brees was playing with a worse defense, do you think that's why their team played with a more open offense?

Maybe an interesting question here is: Do you think Brees is better than Brady too?

You seem to really value passing yards. Brady has more passing yards, but that's because he played 48 more games (3 additional seasons). Brees had 280 yards / game and Brady has 266...for comparison Ben has 257. And when you look in the playoffs Brees has fewer total yards, but 298 yards / game to Brady's 279.

Let's look at TDs.

Why is Brees not "more dominant" than Brady? He's got more yards / game in the regular season and the playoffs. Brees also beats Brady in TDs per game (both beat Ben here too).

If you don't think Brees is better than Brady (and he's very obviously not better than Brady), why do you think Brady is better than Brees? What's the reason everyone reasonable would say that Brady actually was a dominant QB?

 

Great call.

Ward is the only jersey I own.

But Troy is my favorite Steeler of all time.

 

Brees spent the large majority of his career in the Superdome (controlled environment, no wind, no cold, perfect footing). Even his outdoor games were often in milder climates. His career passer rating was significantly higher indoors (104–105) than outdoors (91–92 range). Hmmm... That is a real advantage for precision passing and rhythm offenses. Ben played virtually his entire career outdoors at Heinz Field in the AFC North—cold, wind, rain, snow, and defensive-minded environments. Those conditions punish pure pocket passers more than physical, off-platform throwers. So yes, Brees operated in more favorable throwing conditions overall. That doesn’t erase his production, but it does explain some of the volume and efficiency gap.

Sean Payton is widely viewed as one of the better offensive minds of that era—creative, aggressive, and tailored around Brees’ strengths (quick game, timing routes, high completion percentage). Mike Tomlin has always been more defensive-oriented, and Ben worked with a Tomlin man that was not often not good at offensively play calling and scheme.

Factor in the above as you see fit.

I will take Ben over Brees ( Both are top 12 all time QB's in my book ) mainly because he is better in the playoffs.

 

FWIW, I think you are using the term "cherry picking" incorrectly.

Looking at the entire careers of both players and realizing that one of them won more championships than the other isn't cherry picking.

No one is removing any data from the set when they point out that Ben won 2x SBs (and went to another) and Brees went to one SB and won.

 

The natural comparison for Troy isn't Houston, it's Reed.

Personally, I think Troy is better than Reed. Probably for the same reasons I think Ben is better than Brees. Reed is the text book definition of what a FS is supposed to be. And he was elite at it.

But Troy broke the mold. He was unique. And I don't think I'll ever see anyone play the position like he did again in my life. Just like we'll never see a QB who played like Ben in his prime IMO.

And while they play different "subsets" of the same position so their roles are different, I don't think anyone would look at Ben and Brees in their primes and think they were playing the position in the same way. Which is exactly what I think made Ben special. He was a completely different animal than other QBs. Just like Troy is an N of 1 at S.

But by the logic you're using for Brees vs Ben, how do you escape the conclusion that Reed is the better player?

Ed Reed: 64 INTs, 1590 Yards, 7 INT-TDs, 139 PDs, 11 FFs, 13 FRs, 2 FR-TDs, 6 sacks, 646 Tackles, 34 TFLs, 1 Sfty. 1x SB wins.
Troy (the GOAT): 32 INTs, 398 Yards, 3 INT-TDs, 107 PDs, 14 FFs, 7 FRs, 2 FR-TDs, 12 sacks, 783 tackles, 56 TFLs, 0 Sfty. 158 games. 2x SB wins.

When you look at the individual stats, there's just no way you can walk away from the 32 extra INTs and the 4 extra DTDs, right? The safety too.

The difference between these two guys in defensive points scored alone is 30. Since Troy scored 35 points, my guess is that the difference here is bigger than the amount of defensive points scored by most elite defenders

The extra TFLs (which include sacks) that Troy had are important too. Same with the FFs. It's also nice to have the extra tackles (I was expecting Troy to have a bigger lead here personally).

But on the stat sheet, you'd obviously take an extra 28 turnovers (32 INT - 4 FFs), 1200 yards, 4 TDs, 1 safety....etc.

What made Troy special wasn't the stats. Just like Ben.

But you don't just compare Ben and Brees on their stats (Ben loses on stats just like Troy does).

You also diminish Ben's (vs Brees) because Ben had a better team around him. Would you do the same when comparing Troy to Reed?

Troy also had a better team around him. Probably much better because he had a HoF QB.

It's nice for Reed that he played with a HoF ILB. But no one reasonable takes a HoF ILB (even then when they mattered more) over a HoF QB.

Reed never had the benefit of playing with a great QB. And he won a SB with Joe f' Flacco. By your logic, isn't that way more impressive than winning 2x SBs with a HoF QB like Ben?

And the difference between Potsie and the (alleged) murderer in BAL isn't nearly as big as the difference between Flacco and Ben, right? I assume that you can't believe that Flacco is better than Ben...

 

Ben has played in a dome(or retroof) only 22 times in his career,all on the road of course and his QB rating was around 104

 

And context always matter....When Brees was in a run firs team with a defensive coach in San Diego(similar for Ben with Cowher),his passing yards average was at 210 in 2004 and 223 in 2005.I don't count the years from 2001 to 2003.In 2006 in a pass happy team under Sean Payton,it was now at 276 yards per game!

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BreeDr00.htm

This is the perfect example why this is better for a QB to have a offensive coach...At least for the stats.It don't matter much for QB like Brady or Peyton Manning since they can run their offense but for the majority,it matter big time

 

Reed was a free safety. TP was a strong safety. Tough to compare different positions.

 

Yep...which is why I said:
And while they play different "subsets" of the same position so their roles are different, I don't think anyone would look at Ben and Brees in their primes and think they were playing the position in the same way. Which is exactly what I think made Ben special. He was a completely different animal than other QBs. Just like Troy is an N of 1 at S.

They are both safeties. But they have different responsibilities in the schemes they live in.

We don't have different names for the position for the different way Ben played QB in his prime and the way Brees played QB.

But is the difference between those two play styles all that much different from the difference in play styles of Reed and Troy?

And the responsibilities of Ben being coached by Cowher/Tomlin and Brees (especially when coached by Payton) are also different. Just like the responsibilities of Reed and Troy.

 

By dominant, I mean being Top 3 overall. That is my point. Brees consistently was. Big Ben was for one season.


Dominance isn't just measured purely by stats. Dominance, in the NFL Player domain, must be measured by great performance after great performance after great performance. Drew Brees owning so many NFL Records, with no HOF Talent around in him New Orleans, doesn't happen by accident. He was that consistent for a very large portion of his career; dominant for a good stretch of it as well. . Big Ben possessed far more superior Offensive Talent yet couldn't have consistently great games overall. He did have great games no doubt... just not in repeated succession like Drew Brees did.


As far as stats such as Passing Yards and Touchdowns, that isn't what I look for when it comes to PvP. I believe I have now said this countless times and will do so again; individual accolades matter much more than team based ones. Brees has Big Ben soundly beat in that department.

 

Ward, Bradshaw, Ben, and the Bus are the only offensive jerseys I own. The rest are, Lloyd, Watt, 2 Troy Ps, Harrison, I burned a Woodson Pro bowl, and I wish I didn't, M. Blount, Greene, Porter, Farrior, and a personalize one with my name , and number

 

Just this has a lot to do with passing. There were some years Brees only played 2 games outside the whole year.
If people don't know the difference in trying to pass outside in the elements compared to passing in a mall , well I don't know what to say

 

There is no such thing as individual accolades in football. That's a myth.

 

I bet that's a hell of a story.

 

With so many consecutive great performances, it's very surprising Brees didn't appear in more SBs!

Edited to add:

Individual Accolades
Ed Reed: 9x PB, 5x 1st AP, 1 DPOY
Troy: 8x PB, 4x 1st AP, 1x DPOY

I disagree with you that Reed > Troy.

 

Him going to the Ravens. I was fine with the 49ers, and playing CB, but going to the Ravens to play Safety like we tried to get him to do was the straw that broke the camels back. LoL.
Like I said, I wish I didn't now.

 

I also really hated seeing him on the Rats.