What are Reasonable Expectations for Mike McCarthy in year one with the Steelers?

The focus was also more on the Pats too for the steelers

 

teams with new head coaches can start off season workouts 2 weeks ahead.

 

Key word... will they?

 

You know this would wake me up from the dead.

Woke me up from the dead, you should have known that.

Nice try parsing stats my friend. If that was a "stinker" Ben is not a HOFer. He has "won" plenty of games playing worse than that one. As I have said before, if we simply kept Jax from dominating us in the 4th that game is an absolutely LEGENDARY comeback from Ben.

This one is not on Ben but WAY MORE about Tomlins underachieving defense that day. Jax was playing "prevent"? Really? Do you remember the game?

Prevent has DBs deep, allowing all underneath stuff. Ben was killing them DEEP my friend, that is not the result of a prevent defense.

Ya know the ONE TIME Ben had no business throwing deep?

That FOURTH AND ONE WHEN BEN WHO NEVER FAILS QB SNEAKS is given a pass play instead. No throw deep? Oh and the OTHER 4th and 1 fail? We toss the ball 6 yards BEHIND the LOS? Really?

That is COACHING.

And there was no prevent. Next post will prove it.

 

Gemini, Did the Jaguars go into a prevent defense during this game?

The Jacksonville Jaguars' defensive strategy during the 45-42 win over the Steelers on January 14, 2018, is often a point of debate because they allowed 21 points in the fourth quarter. However, the team and analysts generally maintain that they did not switch to a "soft" prevent defense in the traditional sense; rather, they stayed with their aggressive schemes, but the Steelers' playmakers simply out-executed them.

Here is a breakdown of why it may have looked like a prevent defense, versus what was actually happening on the field:

1. "Tight Coverage" vs. Explosive Plays
The Jaguars’ coaching staff and players, including Calais Campbell and A.J. Bouye, noted that they were still playing tight coverage and aggressive defense. They argued that Ben Roethlisberger was simply making "special" plays, throwing into 12-inch windows that even elite coverage couldn't stop.

2. The Fourth Quarter Surge
While the Jaguars didn't intentionally sit back, the Steelers' production in the final quarter was massive:

• Antonio Brown caught a 43-yard touchdown on 4th & 5.
  
  
• Le'Veon Bell scored on a lateral play after a Roethlisberger scramble.
  
  
• JuJu Smith-Schuster caught a touchdown with one second left.
  

3. Defensive Philosophy
The Jaguars’ 2017 defense (nicknamed "Sacksonville") relied on a dominant front four and "sticky" man-to-man coverage. In the fourth quarter, fatigue and the Steelers' "go-for-broke" mentality on fourth downs (they converted 4 of 6) made the defense look more vulnerable than it had been all season.

Ultimately, the consensus was that the Jaguars resiliently responded to the Steelers' rally by continuing to score on offense rather than just trying to "hold on" with a prevent defense.

 

What did the Jax defenders say after the game:

Campbell: "We were playing great defense, doing what we were asked to do, but they would make plays. On one play, we were in perfect coverage. I got my hand on Ben and he slipped away. He threw a bomb and [cornerback] A.J. [Bouye] is in perfect coverage and it's a touchdown. I'm thinking, 'This is my fault. I've got to get him down in that situation. You can't get your hand on the quarterback and miss out. You've got to get him down.' But it's the playoffs and Big Ben is special. He's tough to tackle. That's what makes him special. Big Ben was more determined than I've ever seen him. That's the heart and passion you play with in the playoffs: great players doing whatever it takes. He kept chipping away. I just remember thinking to myself: 'Keep fighting, keep fighting, because it's never over 'til it's over.'''

Bouye: "We definitely had tight coverages. They were just making plays. It's the NFL. They get paid like we do."

The final score surprised many observers. Not only had the Jaguars' offense surpassed expectations by scoring five touchdowns, the Jaguars' second-ranked defense allowed six touchdowns to Pittsburgh's offense. Despite that, the Jaguars left this game feeling they had played well defensively.

Marrone: "We gave up points, but when you look at that game, we had tight coverage. Ben threw it exactly where it needed to be thrown. Sometimes, you play against explosive offensive players … when that ball's in that 12-inch window and the quarterback's dropping it in there, there's not much you can do."

But make no mistake: this was a memorable day for a Jaguars offense that had been maligned at times this season despite ranking sixth in the NFL in yards and fifth in scoring.

Campbell: "Fournette had it going, Blake had it going. The offensive line was physical. You couldn't stop us. We really won that game because of the way the offense played. As good as we were on defense, and we did play good ball at times, that game was won because the offense came to play."

 

Bottom line if this Ben performance happened ANYTIME early in his career it is a victory.
If that defense shows up any time IN MY LIFETIME we lose. Defense and coaching lost that game more than anything.

 

No...the bottom line is that the margin of victory for the Jags was less than the DTD. Same as the GB SB. Though I think the truth is that if the D was better, then the O would have been worse because the Jags objective would have been different on defense if the score was close (where they consistently dominated us across 2 games).

That Jags D was special. And I think they were a uniquely bad match up for us (again IIRC, we played the Pats much better than the Jags in either of those games).

Nice trick with the AI, but if you think teams play the same on defense when games are close vs. when they're up by multiple scores...well, I know you know more about football than that.

Just like I know you know enough about football to understand that a when up by 10 with 1:45 left to go against a team with no timeouts, it doesn't really matter if the other team scores. The goal on defense here is to keep the clock running so they take all the time. I'm sure the Jags would have preferred that we didn't score. But giving up a TD AND forcing us to use all but 0:01 is the objective of that drive for the defense.

Why do you think we sucked so badly against their defense any time the game was close? Why was Ben only a HoF QB when we were down by 14 or more (or they were trying to make us use up the clock at the end of the game)?

Your argument that Ben would have had the same stats if the D wasn't terrible (and they were terrible) isn't supported by the evidence. Because the Jags dominated us every time the score was close (in both games we played that year).

That team had our offense / Ben figured out.

Aside: The exact same thing happened in the CLE playoff game (except we turned it up to 11 in that one). I think that was the worst first half by a team in playoff history (again a complete team failure). But Ben puts up great stats in the 2nd half. Because the game was already over. Even though the score made it look closer than it was at the end.

Edited to add: Also...can you remind me what happened in the 2nd half when the D held (by some miracle) and we were only down by 7? I think I forgot this possession in my list of offensive drives within 10 points above.

 

Tomlin should have been fired after loss to Jags in January of 2018.

/thread

 

In hindsight, this would have made sense because we didn't win anything with him afterward. Although I think it would have been better for the team to try for a trade first so there was some kind of return.

Do you think we also should we also have traded Ben at this point? We would have gotten a king's ransom and been able to rebuild with younger guys.The return here would have been much, much higher than trading Tomlin (firing him would have gotten us nothing).

At the time I would have been very, very against both of these decisions. And still don't think any "smart" team makes those decisions in real time.

But in retrospect, all keeping them did for us was get us a couple more WC games. Were the WC games against CLE and KC (then BUF, BAL, and HOU with only Tomlin) worth it?

 

So, Ben could only be a Hall of Fame quarterback when the Jags weren't trying to stop him?

Sure thing......got it.

You do know that the first interception was a tipped ball that went off the defender and then the receiver's hands along the sideline and then bounces up in the air back into the field of play and then intercepted. He didn't throw it into the chest of the defender. Watch the play. You and some others are always trying to make football plays into huge mistakes by the quarterback. At least 99 times out of a hundred, that is an incomplete pass.

Watch the handoffs in third and fourth down short yardage situations that give the ball to the back 6 yards behind the line of scrimmage. How in the name of football is that on the quarterback? I mean, really?

So if the Steelers' offense gets stopped on third down and four with a delayed draw for -2 yards, that's on Ben? If the offensive line commits a penalty and it's third and 11 or second and 20, Ben has to convert every one of those to be a Hall of Fame quarterback?

My God, man. If just one of you Ben haters would EVER just acknowledge that Tomlin's playoff defenses in the last 10 years stunk like an open septic tank during a hot Florida summer, you might be taken more seriously. You blow up your own argument when you ignore a defense that couldn't stop the run or pass, all while playing against Blake Bortles. Time for a reasoning check.

The Steelers and Ben put up 42 on a top ranked defense. Does that even register with you?

Ben walks into the Hall of Fame even with that "awful" performance in the playoffs against the Jaguars.

 

This has taken a turn.

Pretty sure football is a 3 part game - offense, defense, special teams.

When you make more mistakes than the other guy in 2 out of the 3 parts; you're gonna lose.

 

But they fired the Oc
Make it make sense

 

I think it's pretty clear to everyone that the Jags game has nothing to do with why Ben should be a 1st Ballot HoFer (I worry that he'll get screwed by the committee though).

Re: Defense. Did you read any of my posts on this? In basically every post, I went out of my way to say the D was terrible. Because it was. All of these playoffs losses were team playoff losses. Coaching was bad. Defense was bad. Offense was bad (including QB play) but padded the stats when we were down big.

I'm not sure the last playoff game where we had one phase of the team that payed well. Which means that the coaching hasn't been good either (although I do think we have generally done better than we "deserved to" since at least Ben got hurt).

Re: Ben hater. This is just ad hominem BS.

Again, did you read any of my posts in this thread? I have consistently said that I believe Ben is the best QB I'll ever see play for the Steelers. And that I think he should easily be a 1st ballot HoFer (although I won't be surprised if the committee screws him for Midgeville).

Because the chances we get anyone as good as him (honestly I doubt we'll get close) before I die (and I'm < 50) are pretty low IMO.

I add these disclaimers pretty consistently because there are people who think that any criticism of Ben is off limits because he won 2 SBs. I think he deserves most of the credit for these SB wins...especially the 2nd one. He had a bad game in the SEA SB win, but there's no way we get there without Ben (not just because of the tackle either).

I love what Ben did for the team. He and Troy are the most entertaining players I've ever seen play in real time. In his prime, Ben had a super power that meant that no play (or game) was ever over. Because he would just will things into existence.

I don't think we'll ever see a QB who can play the game like he did, at the level he did, and survive.

Sadly, I don't think you can live like that in the NFL for longer than he did. And the rate of those magic plays seemed to consistently decline after about the GB game (in part because Rooney wanted him to "fade away" rather than "burn out" so the offense changed). To Ben's great credit, he changed his game pretty dramatically and still had success. From the guy who would shrug off defenders for days and then bomb it, to the author our of "the short pass is the new run" offense.

He went from vintage Ben to something like a better version of Alex Smith. Because even his body couldn't take the punishment that young Ben demanded for those magical plays.

And the reason that I'll always remember those last two regular season games (especially the Rats game) is because I don't think his body was able to do it any more. But he had an enormous heart and he wasn't going to "go out" losing to division rivals. Especially after what must have been a pretty demoralizing loss to CLE in the playoffs the year before.

 

I Love people talking about what Defenses were run, and clearly they don't know much about Defense, or the difference in formations, but they think they are sounding smart, and the funny thing is people agree. LoL

 

I'm right about Steelers switching to 4-3 after losing SBXLV. We'd have at least 1 more Lombardi in the trophy case.

 

Defense kept the KC playoff close for a half but the offense could do nothing with it.

 

Well, it's pretty clear to all but a bunch of people that rag on Ben for putting up 42 points against the Jaguars' top defense but still losing the playoff game isn't really a negative against him at all.

I don't think you're worried about Roethlisberger getting screwed out of getting into the HOF on the 1st ballot. You seem to want everyone to think that, yet you question him, knock him, and criticize him every time he is brought up here.

Why the charade?

 

It's pretty hard to get blown out when you get a DTD for.

 

When we talk about the games where I think he played poorly, I say he played poorly.

I don't defend him at all costs.

Because I know that his resume speaks for itself. And doesn't need me to lie about how great he was. Because he was great without having to lie about it.

Do you think he played well in the CLE playoff game too?

IMO, he should have been a 1st ballot HoF'er if he decided to retire the day after that pass to Holmes. You can't "tell the story of the NFL" without that pass. Because it was the best pass in a SB ever. Especially with the context that it was 2nd down and he could have thrown it away and still had two more tried.

That play perfectly illustrates who Ben was. He was a guy who would much rather make "errors of commission" than "errors of omission". And it takes massive balls to do that.

ETA: That Jags defense was awesome BTW. Being the nearly unstoppable force that loses to the immovable object isn't shameful IMO.

ETA2: I think Kurt Warner deserves to be in the Hall even though the difference in that Cardinals game is the pick-6 he threw when a FG would have been a perfectly good outcome for them. It's not his fault our defense was crazy good. If we asked him about that game, do you think he talks about how bad his defense was? Or do you think he says "we win that game if I don't make that mistake?". IMO, I think we'd get the same answer from Ben about the Jags game (and the GB SB).

 

Hell no. Roethlisberger was in decline after 2019 and elbow injury... but a better head coach would have netted better results in 2020 and 2021 playoffs. I believe Steelers would have been more competitive in the playoff games, if they had a better head coach and philosophy on offense. A better head coach would have managed the sunset of Ben's career much better, IMO.

 

No, Ben stunk in the Clevland game.

Please address this next paragraph. You always avoid it even though I have posted about it many times. You're wrong about your view on that game-winning throw in the Super Bowl.

You continually talk about the pass to Holmes to win the Super Bowl. On first down Ben threw a great pass on the play before the game-winning throw that went through Holmes' hands. That should have been the game-winning pass on first down. Then Ben made the incredible throw to the other side of the field to Holmes, and he caught the game-winner on second down. He made two perfect plays at the end of that game, yet people just gloss over it as if he got lucky. So instead of winning the game with two perfect passes, he was supposed to wait for third down and shouldn't have thrown that pass to the corner when one had already been dropped? What don't you understand about that? He won that Super Bowl with what is widely considered the worst offensive line to ever win a Super Bowl. That offensive line wasn't any good for several years. Madden said it out loud during the game. "That's just Ben being Superman." There was no consistent blocking. Ben HAD to make plays for the team to have a chance to score points. That's what seems to evade you.

Kurt Warner was a great quarterback in big games. At other times he was a turnover machine that wasn't able to evade a pass rush and couldn't play starter-level football. Do you rate Warner over Ben as a quarterback?

Also, you don't know that the Cardinals win that game if Warner doesn't throw the interception. Everything would have changed from that moment on in the way the game was called and executed. You talk in absolutes that the Cardinals would have won, but don't seem to want to penalize Warner for throwing an interception into the stomach of James Harrison at the goal line. Not a tipped pass at the LOS. Not a deflected or broken up pass by a defender that bounced to him. Warner made a read and didn't see Harrison drop into the end zone, and he threw it right to him. In the Jaguars game, a fluky bounce on a sideline pass gets intercepted and you want to pin the loss on Ben. There's a huge difference in those two interceptions, one by each quarterback.

One last question. Was the Steelers' defense ever responsible for a loss in your eyes?

 

The steelers had no chance for this game...The chiefs were a powerhouse,Roethlisberger was washed and it was his last career game and the steelers had a Matt Canada offense

I am way more sick of the game vs Jaguars in 2017