Ok Am I Missing Something.

It helps when you're in the worst division in football and a div winner by a missed fg. MT was who he was. A coach with a medium ceiling that hit that ceiling week one of the playoffs. So, who at fault for the weak rosters? GM, ARII, who kept putting the HC with subpar roster as that is the root causes to me that needs fixing.

 

Oh I agree Tomlin had a big part in how the roster was constructed.

 

big part yes

sole decision no

 

so are you suggesting the players make the coaches? i tend to think that strong schemes can also make the players. are you telling me that purdy is a great QB? or all of a sudden sam darnold's light just clicked on? or perhaps schemes can make a good QB look great and some schemes can make a QB look much worse than they are?

i don't doubt purdy is a good QB, but great? i'm not sure. and in darnold's case...was he operating in bad schemes before the vikings and seahawks?

a good coach schemes his players into winning positions rather than expecting his players to win in bad situations.

did the steelers have a great roster? no, not at all. but i don't think collectively they would have looked as bad as they did with better schemes. expecting older players to win simply because of their experience and past performances is foolish indeed. but to think that all of the older players on the team were completely washed i cannot agree with.

 

I'd be happy to not be predictable and have the other team players say they knew what we were doing.

 

zig
If so, then that is a potential huge gain/ change in how we look going forward. New set of criteria from a HC with a track record for talent acquisition and development. Could be a big improvement. Could be.

 

I think it starts with player talent. If a player sucks, I don't think there's anything a coach can do about that. If a player is good, then yes, a good coach can play to his strengths and have him be more successful.

 

i can agree to that. but i don't feel that most of the steelers' roster sucked. honestly, even jones was touted as a very good LT prospect coming out. it isn't like everyone thought the steelers reached in that selection. i think his growth was hindered by tomlin playing him out of position. who can you say for certain that was on the roster who "sucked" enough that a good coach couldn't have helped him with scheme?

statistically muth sucked... but he wasn't played as much as he should have been. i'd suggest that ramsey should have been considered at S long before he was moved there. i feel with better play design and proper players being played could have made the offense much better.

yes, they missed having a true WR2. but with how washington looked and how muth played when in, with a better offensive game plan and play design i think it could have worked. especially seeing how well having gainwell worked out. he was essentially a WR2.

 

Probably most of it. It's just basic stuff. The rules have changed in the game, but the basic concept is still the same. He was an offensive line guy. Loved the big boys up front.

 

Ah. Finally. A person that sticks to what they believe, and doesn't talk out of both sides of their mouths. You believe the coaching was bad, and the schemes, and therefore a better coach, and schemes should make us not suck. .
I actually congratulate you, on not trying to play both sides that way You can't be wrong. Thank You

 

thank you sir. i have always felt you will always look better when you put those around you and under you in a position to succeed rather than putting them into a position where they cannot succeed unless they do something miraculous.

i see other teams seemingly put lesser talent on the field and yet they succeed because they were set up to do so with scheme or design rather then run a weak scheme or design and expect them to overcome.

 

Schemes can help make players, no doubt. But the raw ability has to be there. What scheme changes could they make with most of these guys?

Rudolph, Wilson, and Rodgers have all experienced failure attacking the middle of the field under multiple coaching staffs. Wilson got benched in NYG because he actually did it worse there than here. That is not scheme....that is old or not very talented QBs. There is no scheme that makes Wilson taller. ANd now that he can not move outside the tackles to make plays, he struggles. There is no scheme that makes Rudolph better at hitting receivers accurately. Rodgers looked better in the Steelers scheme than he has in 4 years or whatever the math is. But there is no scheme that puts juice back in his legs or zip back on his fastball. He avoided the MOF dating back to tail end of his tenure in GB.

Contrast that with Purdy and Darnold. Both still have their legs. Both still have more zip on their throws than Rodgers. Both can still move off their initial spot, reset, and punish a defense for committing too much to the pass rush. Rodgers and Wilson can no longer do that. Can't hid that with any scheme I am aware of.

Ramsey and Slay simply can no longer turn and run with players 10 years younger than them. Almost all the plays they got beat on where guys just running by them. Slay not reporting to the Bills is a telling action. Slay knows he is done. The Eagles did too. Who trades Ramsey if he is still Ramsey from his Rams salad days? He isn't and the Steelers asked him to be. Then they moved him to safety and tried to hide him from single coverages.

Who is saying all the old(er) players are washed? Semalo is still pretty good. Heyward is still good. Watt is likely fine just needs an offseason to get his body right. MVS and Theilen are done as legit WRs. I think everyone knows that. The other big glaring underperformers were Friermuth and Queen. I think PF stinks, but smart people tell me it is just a scheme fit. So maybe that gets better with a new OC? Queen? Same problems as a Steeler that he had as a Raven. Arguably same issues he has had since college. Queen is an athletic marvel that has an intermittent feel for the game. Multiple coaches and schemes have not corrected that. Might just be a Patrick Queen issue.

And one bonus one -- DK Metcalf. Everyone is now complaining that he does not win contested catches that often and gets the dropsies. This is the exact reason that Seattle replaced him. Again...not scheme...but player.

 

i truly don't disagree with everything you are saying. but you can't tell me that different route trees and different pass concepts wouldn't have helped the offense. you say rodgers doesn't have the arm any longer...i suggest there are QBs that currently play that don't have an arm any better than rodgers does now and yet they manage to use to the MOF. if i remember correctly, wasn't one of the knocks on purdy a weak arm? doesn't he use the MOF? wasn't montana and brady considered weak armed? yet they used the MOF. rudolph is what he is. not a starter. i was no fan of wilson either because of his size and having to have passing lanes because he couldn't get outside like he used to.

and yes, the aging non-wonders at WR were not good. but different route concepts could have helped the receiving corps. i am including the TEs as receivers. when you run bunch concepts and only routes to the outside or down a sideline it is much easier to cover for a defense.

queen is an athletic marvel. his knock when he left the ravens was not being able to operate when wearing the dot. i think he hesitates and thinks too much when he wears the dot. when he didn't in baltimore he was damn good in the middle.

as for metcalf....i would have thought everyone knew he wasn't a contested catch guy that sometimes had the dropsies. he is the type of WR you hit on a slant, a corner, a post or a deep seem and watch him go. he was never a contested catch guy from what i remember.

too often many of the players were used incorrectly or in the wrong position. i didn't expect ramsey and slay to be some saviors to the defense. i did hope that ramsey might have had a little left but at his age safety is probably a better fit where he can watch and use his smarts rather then try to use his speed or lack thereof. i didn't expect slay to do much. he had his moments but nothing consistent really.

 

2026: 9-8, 10-7...no playoffs

That is my prediction.

 

We can only hope.

 

So....that all boils down to your issue being the lack of MOF in the passing game? Or at least that is how I read it.

Go take a look at the passing charts for Rodgers outside of Pittsburgh with the Jets and his last year or so in GB. It isn't that different. Look at Wilson in Denver and with the Giants. Heck, look at Fields with the Jets. Rudolph with the Titans. Then go look at Ben R before he got hurt and the one playoff game he tried to lead a desperate comeback post-injury. All of them show the same pattern: Bad or old QBs do not use the MOF. When Ben was healthy, the Steelers did use the MOF.

Here is Purdy: https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/brock-purdy/PUR243289/season
Here is Rodgers: https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/aaron-rodgers/ROD339293/season

I have no idea how to quantify the little dots...but a QUICK visual scan doesn't reveal a MASSIVE difference. What seems to be the difference is the completed or intended air yards (whichever one you like): https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/passing#average-completed-yards. It is comically bad. Here it is in graphic form (only through week 6 so MAYBE it got bit better?):


And from what I can quickly find on the internet....this has not been much better since about 2019 or so. Although Kenny Pickett got up to a whopping 5.5 yards per completion for a bit.

The Steelers have been scheming to hide their QB and insulate the QB from any exposure for the last two seasons. We can all agree the Pickett-Canada pairing was a dumpster fire and an exercise in futility as both men were in so far over their heads they couldn't tell which way was up.

A final one: https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/tua-tagovailoa/TAG620344/2023 -- 2023. Tua's best season with McDaniel as the boy genius play caller. Not exactly threading the needle over the MOF.

Avoiding the MOF is a consistent league-wide choice when you have a QB you are attempting to insulate from being exposed. Another thing to think about as we watch the remaining playoff games. Many times on my TV screen, big play MOF passes come on "broken" plays. The QB evades the rush, sets up on another spot, and finds a receiver running free as coverage breaks down. That is not possible when your QB can not move and is chucking the ball out there in less than 3 seconds.

 

i really do get what you are saying but sometimes i wonder were they trying to insulate the QBs or was tomlin, and no this isn't a bash tomlin thing, living in his fears and just refusing to allow the use of the MOF? i know fields wasn't some great QB but he certainly had the arm to use the middle of the field and he never did. i guess it could be a chicken or the egg thing. i am not willing to completely agree that they didn't think the QBs could do it so they didn't. i seriously believe rodgers has enough arm to throw there. i know fields had the arm to throw there, although he lacked accuracy. but he also had the legs to move to use the MOF from a scramble or rollout.

i just think there was more to it that the team trying to insulate the QBs inability when i am not certain that they couldn't. we know pickett couldn't. we know wilson never did. but i think there was more to it.

 

Its not only coaching, we have to do better at drafting;

Chase Claypool?
Najee?
Kenny Pickett?
Broderick Jones?
Troy Fantenu - TBD
Derrick Harmon - TBD

Our first rnd picks the past sick years

4 busts and 2 TBD’s. Im not even going to get into the other rnds, we’ve hit on a few like JP jr, Frazier, and PF but the bast majority have been misses. Hopefully the new coaching staff can help improve our success rate in drafting or improve development

 

I get what you’re saying. And it would be far more hopeful if it were true because it would mean that there was hope that a new coach could elevate a flawed QB.

But based on what I can see from my couch and others data on the internet; it just simply isn’t true. Despite all the positive physical attributes you correctly identify, coaches going back to college have not had Fields be successful over the middle with any frequency.

I’ll grant that Tomlin was EXTREMELY risk averse post Ben. But I feel like everyone forgets how open to risk he was when he had a swaggering gunslinger under center.

You gotta have the chips to play. The Steelers haven’t had the chips in years.

 

i certainly agree with you that tomlin became very risk adverse after ben. no question there at all. whomever they hire as HC i hope they can come up with some way to use the whole field rather than from only the hashes out. not using that much field kills an offense all by itself.

 

The most damning part to me was the utter failure by the org (GM, scouts, coaches) to misread the talent they assembled on defense in the preseason. Then the HC doubling down by calling it 'historic'... just a very bad look.
Having said this, it also could have been the HC trying to speak something into existence rather than representing the reality. If you ever read Steve Jobs bio you would know that he often did the same kinds of things to push his org forward. And of course there was the infamous Elizabeth Holmes case where she tried to speak her technology into existence but failed badly.

 

Yep. It doesn't always dawn on some that even a 1st round QB pick is still a 50/50 bet at best.

 

You know what is a lot lower than 50%, our picks since 2018. We haven't even taken a swing at the ball (well, I guess Pickett was a swing, more like a bunt).
2018, Rd 3, 76 - Rudolph
2022, Rd 7, 241 - Oladokun
2022, Rd 1, 20 - Pickett

The only franchise QBs we've had since Noll were first round picks. Bradshaw at 1st, and Ben 11th. Pickett at 20th was a stretch at 20 but we'll count it and, at least for the Steelers, that's a 67% success rate.

Rd. 1 doesn't always get you a franchise QB, but it gives you the best chance.

 

True. Of the 14 teams who made the playoffs this year, 12 of them had first round QB's.