lets talk tackles

http://www.steelersdepot.com/2013/0...bert-left-tackle-2013-offensive-line-shuffle/

are we in trouble? will next year bring a top LT in the draft. can gilbert hold this spot down?

I've stated before that gilbert is a different version of max starks. snack will argue gilbert doesn't give up sacks and that is true last year, but the pressures are just as bad and also cause hits on the qb, since the rules are not equal for all qb's.

i'm glad max has finally moved on but have we improved the play at that spot? max didn't give up a lot of sacks last year, but it's written that he gave up 3 times the pressures and hits on our qb's then the year before. this is showing to be similar play from gilbert.

47th out of 64 tackles is not good. 32 teams X 2 tackles. not what we need from a LT. it also tells of max's run blocking, which we pretty much knew about. he couldn't. can gilbert?

we already know adams was put on the right side because of his better run blocking ability. my question is can gilbert's pass blocking ability or lack of, be better served at LT? is he better then adams in that department? has foster been moved there to help cover or have we just taken our mediocre right side and now expect them to learn everything in reverse to cover bens backside? I can't see this as much of an upgrade, and possibly a downgrade since they are re-learning the footwork they have or were just getting used to?

 

I still think Mike Adams should be the LT. Even if you have to deal with the growing pains, he will play good enough and will develop into a great LT down the road.

 

I'm probably gilbert's biggest detractor on this board, so to say that i'm concerned is a bit of an understatement.... that said, I also believe that adams still needs more seasoning and coaching before he can take over the left side... despite my anxiety over gilbert being on the left, i'm keeping an open mind, and hoping that all the reports about the o-line working out together turn out to be more than just talk....... I do think that adams is our future at lt, but I also think we look to the draft for another tackle to push gilbert to the bench, where I do believe he would be an above average back up..
I do want to see gilbert succeed. I just don't think he will.
I also hope that i'm eating a lot of crow after the season........ only time will tell.

 

mac, it sounds like you didn't follow the link from the article.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/

His rookie season, Gilbert was 12th best and Max was 47th out of 75 (not 64) OTs. That's by the combined numbers of hurries, hits, and sacks allowed. You should love that stat (by the way, sacks, hits, and hurries, are not all exactly as bad as each other - a sack may sometimes be not as bad as a hit, but sacks usually are and are always worse than hurries). I don't know how you're connecting the dots between them based on this article. Gilbert tied for 12th with Duane Brown, who I've heard some around here say they'd trade a 1st round pick or more to acquire. I don't see the stats for 2012. As you said, according to PFF (according to the article), he was "somewhat less efficient" last year, although did not give up a sack. Doesn't exactly sound like he took a nose dive to me. And it was a smaller sample, from the beginning of the year. He's still getting better.

We haven't seen him play a regular season game on the left side in the pros yet, so I don't blame you at all for worrying. I have my doubts too. For all I know he won't be able to handle it. I see no reason to believe he'll perform worse than Starks. I like Starks, but at this point in their careers, I think Starks is Gilbert's floor, and he'll likely be an upgrade. We'll just have to wait and see. But based on what he's shown us on the field so far (as a rookie he statistically out-pass protected all OTs in his class, including the 8 taken before him, as well as all but 11 other OTs in the league), and based on the circumstances that he wound up on the right side (has experience on the left and was being groomed to play there before Colon's injury forced him to the right side, then the signing of Starks, who is better on the left, kept him there), in my opinion there is more reason to predict he'll succeed than fail. I certainly don't see the comparison to Starks. Both from Florida, both big guys? Gilbert's more athletic and a better run blocker, and isn't as - um - shapely as Max. Maybe he will be when he's Max's age, but that's a pretty wild prediction. Your post seemed to be more about why Starks shouldn't start at LT for us this year, and then you added Gilbert's name to it.

Also, Foster may have been moved to Gilbert's side to cover for him? ...You mean the least athletic, worst pass protecting guard we have? When the other option was David DeCastro? I doubt it. As far as re-learning footwork, Gilbert has experience at LT, was drafted to be our LT and has seen significant practice reps there, and played some LT in college, where he was only put on the right side to protect the left-handed quarterback. He's stated himself he feels more comfortable there than on the right.

As for Adams, I agree that he has the higher ceiling as a pass protector, but also the lower floor. Could be that he'll make huge strides and surpass Marcus this year, but last we saw of them, Adams was the better run blocker and Gilbert was the better pass blocker. And the last time we saw Adams on the left side, he didn't look good enough to backup the position, let alone start. So the growing pains there are potentially quarterback killing. Plus, thanks to Stabby McGee, Mike's out for awhile and having to rehab. He won't make as much progress this offseason as we'd hoped. I'm not trying to put Mike down. I think at this point he's the 2nd best pass blocking LT on the team, and will have to shift over if Marcus goes down. And before his stabbing, I was totally down for an open competition between the two of them for that spot. However, given everything I already covered, I understand more or less giving it to Gilbert for now. If ya keep giving Adams reps with the 2nd team, you can always switch them later if you need to. For that reason, I doubt we'll be taking an OT high next year. Seems unlikely both these guys bust. They've already both shown so much progress.

 

I honestly think our ability to protect the passer is an overrated concern by many. Ben has shown that he can win despite the pressures IF one thing can happen. We MUST be able to run the ball. If the run is not even a threat, this team cannot win a Super Bowl. They may not anyway, but the reality is this team has to have successful runners of the ball and if these tackles and this oline can do that, we can have success.

 

If Adams outperforms Gilbert and would be the better LT, why not just put Gilbert back at RT? Why bench him? Why draft a replacement? Was he really so bad in the 18 games you've seen him in at RT that you need to draft a new one, probably pretty high?

 

unfortunately, yes.... what I've seen of gilbert so far is telling me that he is not a long term solution on either side as a starter.....I'm not a fan of his footwork.... he struggles against speed rushers, and is pushed back far too often against bull rushes..... his functional strength is not very impressive either........ now I don't think he has reached his ceiling, and believe that he can improve, but being able to improve, and actually doing it are 2 different things...... our qb's health is nothing to be trifled with, regardless of his mobility and strength

 

footwork is the biggest comparison that I see between them snack. I know there are 32 teams and each week 64 offensive tackles start the games, that's what that number was based on.

so at 47th best, it tells me either backups or some RT's in the league are better then max was last year 2012. I could care less about 2011. he was ranked low then too.

gilbert gave up 7 sacks that rookie year, he was also not going against the best pass rusher on that side either. I didn't say he had a bad year in 2011 besides the 7 sacks. he was a rookie. I always figure a player will improve from their rookie year. ( that's why I argue about beachum all the time. he won't stay as he was his first preseason game or any game his rookie year unless he starts them all. then theres a chance he will get better as the season goes.) the article said gilberts pressures were up in his games last year(2012).

as far as foster covering for him I said help cover for him as the more experienced lineman next to pouncey and those two (gilbert and foster) have played next to each other for 18 games. that's what I mean by helping cover for him.

gilbert also may have played LT and RT at florida, but that was a totally different type of offense then we play here. that was nowhere near a pro type offense. big difference.

I've already talked about foster not being a good fit with these more mobile linemen we are acquiring, unless he takes some weight off. i've said the same about gilbert. he's our second least mobile lineman. we have a large side and a mobile side on this line. it will be hard to run the same thing that haley wants to run to both sides with the lack of mobility on the left side. at least not near as effective.

I am very skeptical of this working out well, but i'm hoping it does.

we are trying to keep our elder qb from taking those shots while extending plays. those days are coming to an end. it happens with age. bens mind may tell him he's able to keep this type of play up, but his body will tell him otherwise. I think TH was hired to help ben against himself by the front office. they knew he wouldn't on his own. that's all he's known.

we nearly always start a tackle out on the right side to gain experience for a year. I think it's why adams is on that side this year. if he would have played all year, this might be flipped the other way. I could be wrong.

your saying gilbert is the guy they wanted at LT and why he was drafted ,why then adams? he was supposed to be the guy I thought was drafted to play LT? he just run blocks better than gilbert and could still use that rightside experience since he got hurt last year. It may also allow us to use our new right guard more effectively then teamed with gilbert. (who by the way should be playing LG). just like adams though I think the missed time could be the reason for it this year.

 

The footwork is what worries me too. Can anyone answer whether or not this is a technique problem or it's mostly a freak accident when Gilbert rolls up on somebody? I still am personally skeptical about our line as a whole. We did look pretty good the first half of last year and Ben was upright but what I've wondered is if it was a product of Haley's quick passing system or of them gelling together and blocking better and holding down their assignments. I really think under Tomlin's drafts we've had the most luck at WR or maybe linebacker since we've got Timmons and Woodley under him. Wouldn't you say that the jury is still out on how well we've drafted for the line? Hopefully DeCastro does become the next Fanneca but we honestly can't say at this point.

 

I'm concerned about our OL play. we're putting Ben's final career years in the hands of a virtual rookie in RG DD. In an undrafted run blocking LG and our two new OTs are just that, new and unproven to say the least. Adams is the better run blocker and Gilbert the better pass blocker which is why they are RT & LT respectively. I'm afraid there is going to be some growing pains and I pray it doesn't tranlate to body pains for Ben.

One thing will really help, a solid run game and that seems to be the approach we're heading to.

Can't wait for camp,pre-season and the real Football games to begin!!!!!!!

Cajun-

 

Again, follow the link from your own source. It's counting all OTs that saw significant time (200+ snaps) at OT. Gilbert was tied for 12th out of 75, Starks 47th out of 75. Here it is again: https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/20/2011-pass-blocking-efficiency-offensive-tackles/

Oh? Against which pass rushers did he give up the sacks? You can't just automatically say the LT has the more difficult assignment. That might not be the case for our opponents this year, right? I seem to remember one or two being against Mario Williams, one against Robert Mathis (that wasn't even really his fault), and one against Jabaal Sheard, who had 8.5 sacks as a rookie and was his team's best pass rusher. Another was on his very first drive in the NFL, failing a difficult task he shouldn't have been assigned. After that I don't really remember the others (feel free to enlighten me if you can find them), but if you're assigning difficulty based on position alone, don't forget that all defenses are eager to put their best pass rusher against a rookie OT - especially one thrust into action due to injury, and was thought by most teams to be best suited at OG coming out of college. And a lot of defenses have the ability to move their best pass rusher to whichever side they feel like (Suggs, Ware, Aldon Smith, Von Miller do this).

Well, experience aside, I'm expecting DeCastro to be a better guard than Foster. Even this year. Certainly more athletic.

He pass blocked, didn't he?

Well, all I really want from my LT is to do a decent job protecting the QB. I didn't used to feel that way, but the way the OL's been for half a dozen years, anything after that is just gravy to me, and I expect more gravy from Gilbert than Starks. You might be right about Adams. And I wouldn't rule out him moving over eventually. He's got a higher ceiling and more athleticism. But I doubt he's ready at the start of the season.

Ah, well, you see, Gilbert was drafted in 2011, and Adams was drafted in 2012. Shall I go into more detail? When Marcus Gilbert was drafted, the team was different. Mike Adams wasn't on it, and they had no idea he'd be on it someday. Or any other LT prospect for that matter. They didn't even know who'd be on the team the very next round. Willie Colon was cemented in at RT, and Jon Scott was the only option at LT. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure Gilbert played mostly LT during camp and preseason behind Scott. They might've simply benched Scott for Gilbert after his pathetic performances, but since Colon was done Gilbert was locked into the right side, so they signed Starks. Come 2012, Colon is moving to guard, OT is a need again, and Mike Adams falls right into their laps thanks to some character concerns. At this point they feel Gilbert can play LT or RT, and they draft another player who they feel can play LT or RT. That gives them options, as well as time to bring the new guy up on the right side like Smith and Starks.

 

i'm just confused now.

 

I just hope neither one of them get Ben maimed. They are not too good.
Gilbert, is flat out terrible.

 

No - Chris Kemoeatu was flat out terrible.

Marcus Gilbert had a solid rookie season, and an average to below average second. He's not terrible. As Snack says, perhaps not the high ceiling on his ability, and certainly space for an upgrade if we had that luxury... but not flat out terrible.

 

well no, neither one of our tackles are terrible, but I think gilbert regressed from his rookie year somewhat. he's soft too for as big as he is. the footwork of he or adams is not real quick with any type of change of direction. he's just a big thick guy. if they could put the mean in him that foster displays, we would have an animal. that just doesn't seem to be the kids make-up. he seems like more of a gentle giant, finesse type player. which can still be effective, but i'd prefer a little mean to my linemen.

then moving foster over to that side also makes two guys have to reverse everything they have gotten used to. foster is not nimble of foot either. he will however knock the crap out of people. foster has a pretty good ability to hit multiple targets in the run game but not on the move. his is a straight away game. that's where he excels. that's not going to come in as handy in this zone scheme.

my biggest concern with those two is changing off on some late blitzes from that side in pass protection. not the first guy for each but the 3rd guy through coming on ben's blind side. like the article said though, they have some history together. it's just now backwards. I would like to see adams get some LT reps also. gilbert hasen't played a full seaon yet. nor has adams.

that takes us to beachum,long,whimper or farrell. long and Farrell I like, but Farrell will need some time. long has a shot of making the 53 I believe. i'd personally rather see a young guy with some upside kept over a guy that is pretty position locked like whimper. i'd keep as many LT capable guys as possible for the near future.