Trade Tomlin to Giants?

And what good young QB did they fail to develop? I doubt he micromanages Arthur Smith who can easily get another job if he wants.

 

He hates us as a collective...the fans, so YES he does hate you even though he doesn't know you.

 

BS
You don't know this.

I can't wait for you to start the SOS thread when Miami coaching opens up.

 

Every QB they have had since Ben. It’s the philosophy that I’m talking about that is irritating. Not saying those QB’s were world beaters but other coaches have been able to turn around players careers. Tomlin is not an offensive coach and he has shown to be weak and incompetent in his area of speciality the defense. The great HC’s around the league churn out future coordinators or HC’s in the area of speciality. McKay and Shanghai are two perfect examples. Has Tomlin churned out any coaches from the defensive side of the ball? Why would you as an owner go out and draft a franchise QB under a defensive minded HC who has shown no ability to develop a QB at this point or hire a good OC to develop that QB?

 

It’s pretty obvious. Enough articles have been written a things said by players and reporters alluding to this. The play style has pretty much been the same ever since we got rid of Haley. We have had multiple coordinators but the philosophy , style and results have been fairly similar since. We have tried in a back handed way to migrate to an outside zone blocking run game and it hasn’t worked. I think the Smith hire was good not the best but then why hamstring the guy with your underlings under him instead of letting him hire his own OL coach? Tomlin just never seems like he is fully committed to a direction. Why not make the clean cut with the rest of the offensive staff when you bring in a new OC? I feel like there is always an out or an excuse for why we don’t succeed. So you can’t even evaluate Smith accurately now because is it Tomlin, is it Pat Meyer or the Qb coach or the run game or pass game coordinators? Oh wait we don’t have some of those coaches

 

You DO realize how stupid that sounds, right?

 

Chuck Noll won the NFL Coach of the Year award in 1989. He received this honor for guiding the Pittsburgh Steelers to a 9–7 record and the playoffs, which was considered a remarkable achievement for the team that season.

 

As stated up thread, I'd trade Tomlin for a good shot at a franchise QB in a heartbeat.

But it's pretty clear that Rooney isn't in that camp.

I think it's because Tomlin is very good at achieving the mission of the team (which is to compete for the playoffs every year and not have meaningless games in the regular season).

I do think it would be interesting to see how much of Tomlin's "high floor" system would change if he went to a team that was all about results now / selling the future for the present.

Is he good at the system the Steelers want to run because that's who he is? Or is it because it's a specific choice he's making because that's the thing his boss seems to want most of all?

I don't think we'll ever get an answer to that question. Because I think Tomlin (like Noll and Cowher before him) will coach this team until he doesn't want to coach anymore. So we won't get to see the AB test.

But if I had to guess, I'd say it's just who he is. Maybe not who he was when he started (remember how Ben's production exploded under Tomlin because he was much less conservative than Cowher was?). But I think after you do something for long enough, it gets baked into the cake.

 

Which of those QBs went on to be better somewhere else?

I think I gave a list of QBs we had since Ben. Apparently that doesn't count because it says the opposite of what you're arguing here.

I'm also generally skeptical that NFL HCs develop QBs. I bet that it has happened in rare cases. But I think they come to the NFL as what they are in most cases.

 

Would he do exactly as well? Maybe not. Would he have been successful, especially if they had given him Pickens and Metcalf as targets? Yes, and likely well enough to be their answer for while.

 

Says hear a fella named Lindy Infante won it in 1989. Noll won an AFC coach of the year, but never the NLF coach of the year. Bill Cowher did win NFL coach of the year in 1992. To date Mike Tomlin hasn't won Jack Squat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_Coach_of_the_Year_awards

 

I disagree whole heartedly. The HC in Minnesota and SF have been great at developing QB’s. Sometimes players just need a fresh start. I just don’t believe Pittsburgh under Tomlin is a QB friendly environment. In Tomlins whole tenure as a HC show me who he has developed at QB or what OC’s and DC’s not affiliated with Cowher went on to be a HC? I will answer your question when you answer mine.

 

I agree with you on Rooney. I don’t like how he has seemingly given too much control over to Tomlin but perhaps in doing so he has left Tomlin with no excuses and it would be easy to go in a different direction at that point. Probably wishful thinking on my part. I think Tomlin is similar to Cowher in that he approaches the game from a defensive minded perspective and he us woefully conservative at least now and very much so when he has a QB in that he doesn’t trust. The difference’s between Tomlin and Cowher are many however. Cowher knew how to find good assistants and support them to maximize their talent. I don’t see that with Tomlin. He has a terrible track record with picking and developing assistants. I don’t know why, I have ideas but I believe some of it is Tomlins nature to want to control things too much, not because he is power hungry but because I believe he is a fear based coach and doesn’t fully trust others.

Cowher also knew how to build a run game year in and year out we were dominant in that area. Cowherd also was not nearly as conservative on defense. Yes we are blitzing more this year but it’s sloppy and telegraphed. There is no innovation to our blitzes or coverages. You can say well Lebeau was responsible for the defense and yes he was but then why keep Austin as our DC if he isn’t up to snuff?

I think Tomlin could be a great coach again if you strip away some of his control, most importantly his selection of coaches. He was great when he had good tenured Assistants and he didn’t mess with them. Now his finger prints are all over everything and you know how you can tell. We get different players in and different coaches in but the play looks the same and the results are the same. Nothing changes. You can go back ten years and we were talking about the a lot of the same issues with the teams back then. It’s madness.

Finally Cowherscway worked 20 years ago but the NFL has changed. Yeah I know they’re our fads etc. but when I say it has changed it truly is an offensive league. The way the league is officiated now everything caters to offensive football and player safety. As a result of this evolution it’s crazy to be a defensive focused team with a defensive minded HC. Tomlin is a dinosaur in more ways than one in today’s NFL. Rooney has tried to slow Tomlin to make revisions to catch up to today’s NFL but Tomlins poor judgment and decisions have shown he is behind the times. The weak attempt at finding an OC like Canada was a horrible look for Tomlin. The fact he stayed with the guy for as long as he did and was forced to make the change mid season was even worse. I feel like we’re seeing the same thing play out to a lesser degree with Austin. People wanted him gone last year and now we’re dealing with the consequences of another poor Tomlin indecision. We keep adding players as if that’s the problem. It gets really frustrating. That’s always Tomlins solution to everything… it’s always add players or throw them under the bus and say we need to execute better.

 

Well because Tomlin isn’t a disciplinarian and we have no rules or accountability, we manufactured bad behavior with Pickens and the other Players could take having him in the locker room. Tomlins style breeds malcontents because he offers no structure. If your immature it’s not a great place to play but if your self motivated like a Watt then sure you will succeed,but Watt would probably do well anywhere. Rodgers even said there really isn’t any rules under Tomlin. So my question is then why draft a player like a Pickens in the first place if you know Tomlin won’t be able to handle him and it just causes friction and chaos in the locker room.

 

What do you think about Ben's dramatic increase in performance when Tomlin was hired?

Was that Tomlin developing him? Or just the result of Tomlin being much less conservative on offense than Cowher was? Or just Ben getting use to the NFL? Personally, I tend to think that he didn't develop him. Just let him play more than Cowher did. BC was conservative even by the standards of that era, which was more conservative than today. I said this in a different thread somewhere, but I'm starting to think of Tomlin like I thought of Najee: the perfect coach (or RB in Najee's case) for the late 90s early 00s.

But if I had to pick a system / HC where I'd put a less than great QB, I'd pick SF. Part of that has been that they also have elite skill players. Hard to know how much of this is them hitting with Purdy too.

McVay might be in the conversation here too. But he's not the new hotness anymore.

The other system / HC I'd consider if I had what I thought was an average to below average QB? Pittsburgh. Games will be ugly and not entertaining at all. But you'll get more wins that you "deserve" with bad QB play with the Steelers. We've proven that we can make chicken salad out of chicken **** with bad QB play since Ben got hurt.

Still get destroyed when we face elite QBs in the playoffs though. Because you can't wagyu ribeye with chicken salad.

Not sure I see the data that says O'Connell got better results out of Cousins in 2022 - 2023 vs. what he'd been before that. Looks about the same to me. Like SF, they also have a pretty great group of skill players.

Darnold did play very well last year. Seems to be similar in SEA this year. When we were talking about Tomlin getting better play out of Fields and Rodgers, I think you made the argument that it didn't count because the Jets are a terrible team with horrible culture. Before MIN, who did Darnold play with? NYJ (one of your examples of terrible teams) and CAR. I don't think anyone was accusing them of having a great football culture when Darnold was there.

McCarthy has only played 4 games, so he's a pretty big question mark. Only one game with over 160 yards passing. TD% of 4.6 is around league average (pretty good for a guy in his first 4 games IMO). INT% of 5.6% is really bad. Would be worst in the league if he had enough qualifying throws. But he doesn't. Ultimately, sample size is too small right now and we'll see what happens as the sample size gets bigger. Ben would usually say something like "talk to me after year 2". Which I think is fair.

 

I agree that both Cowher and Tomlin had their best defenses when they were aggressive (and run by Dick LeBeau).

I agree with you that Tomlin's mentality (and Rooney's) are more rooted in that 90s/00s era. I do think we would have a more open offense if we had an above average QB. Hopefully that's something we see again while we're still around (it was a long time from Bradshaw to Ben...although NOD was pretty good outside of the most important game of his life).

 

Are we even sure Tomlin is worth even a 4th?

I'm being serious, look at our fan base. We've had our stadium packed out to niner fans and packers fans. That something a lot of us farts have never seen.

So what owner what's a coach that can't pack out their stadium?

 

Yes... Tomlin is a future Yellow Jacket guy. I've seen crazier coaching trades done in the past. And considering the relationship between the Rooney's and Mara's I don't think the Rooney's would ask for much: 1R pick swap and a 3R seems reasonable for both sides.

 

The most the steelers can have for Tomlin is a late first round pick or second round....This is what the broncos gave up for Sean Payton.No way the steelers can have a top 10 pick even if this is a pick swap.And the fact that Tomlin has a no trade clause don't help his trade value

 

I think there was a combination of things. Tomlin entrusted the Assistant coaches to have more freedom because he was a rookie coach, in a lot of ways the assistant coaches had more tenure than him. I don’t think he was going to get any respect from those guys coming in and wielding a big stick. He was smart enough in that sense. Don’t forget the era was different when Cowher coached and he could afford to be conservative because we had a dominant run game and defense. He didn’t need Ben to do a lot back then. I also think that Arians was much more of a wide open aggressive play caller which probably had the biggest effect on them being more aggressive with Ben. I don’t think Tomlin had that much of an impact on it then.

 

The most u-setting part for me is how bad our defense is. How bad could we miss it in either player evaluation, fit and coaching? Tomlin is supposed to be good in that area. All the money we put into it and the pedigree. We either misevaluated these guys, we’re not marrying the scheme with the player or we’re not coaching the players correctly. No matter how you slice it all is on Tomlin for either endorsing the signings, keeping the coaches, stamping off on the game plan or incorrectly marrying -layers to a scene that doesn’t fit them. The amount of poor decisions by the organization is piling up year after year now.

Kendrick was a debacle and it was another example of trying to force a guy into something he isn’t. All the disgruntled players that left here because they were a malcontent in the locker room. Either don’t draft those types of guys or have rules and accountability in place to teach those guys how to become professionals. The Najee pick was bad so was the Friermuth pick. I just don’t feel like we are a smart football team with Tomlin at the helm.

 

Nope

Don’t be tossing out that Maxwell Club BS to move the goalposts

 

Here free education at no charge

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/awards/ap-coach-of-the-year.htm

 

Stop bringing up the no trade clause like it matters. The Rooney's would never initiate such a thing, even if there wasn't one. They're not going to ruin a 19 year relationship by attempting to trade him. Any trade that legitimately involves Tomlin would be initiated by 3rd party search firms and Tomlin's agent.