Mike Tomlin compared to George Seifert

I realize that this article is 2 years old now, but I think it's still very relevant today. The article talks about how Tomlin won a Super Bowl with 12 starters from Bill Cowher's era and how his career most closely resembles George Seifert's, who followed Bill Walsh and never seemed to get any credit for winning with a core group of Walsh's players.

Another interesting aspect of the article talks about how Tomlin essentially made no changes when he became head coach, which was probably a wise thing to do in retrospect. It discusses how he leaves the Xs and Os to LeBeau and Arians and says that his biggest criticism is that he seems to coach on auto pilot at times. I think some of us have perceived that as him not being involved enough in actually coaching on the sideline, but instead seems to want to be a cheerleader and chest-bumper-in-chief.

As I mentioned in another thread, the time is now for Tomlin to prove his worth with many of the players from the Cowher era being put out to pasture. Along with that, a huge leadership vacuum has been created and it's up to the head coach to try to fill that void. George Seifert was not able to do it once Walsh's players filtered through in San Francisco and he went on to coaching mediocrity with the Panthers. His name is certainly never mentioned when talking about the best head coaches in NFL history, even though he won two Super Bowls. The question is, will Tomlin go the way of George Seifert? The next 2 to 3 seasons will determine his coaching legacy.

http://triblive.com/sports/steelers...idn-players-round-seasons-super#axzz2Kt2ASNOB

 

I guess it could also closely resemble the second half of Chuck Noll's career. It's not easy to just continue winning world championships when a core group of Hall of Famers all find their careers winding down at the same time. Imagine if Noll had retired in 1980. Whoever took over would be considered a bum. Responsible for driving our dynasty into the ground.

Tomlin should be applauded for getting us to two Super Bowls. Instead, he's criticized. Fascinating.

Seifert took over a team that was THE dominant team in the NFL at the time. Tomlin's teams can't make that claim. Indianapolis and New England had better teams than us during his first five years. Still, he took us to two title games (WINNING one). One might even argue he has overachieved with what he has been left with. Yeah, he's had Ben, but this great core of studs he inherited has been running on fumes for the past three years (and he's only been here for six).

 

You make some good points, but I also think it's fair to point out that the first Super Bowl he won 12 of the 22 starters were Bill Cowher's players. Now you may not like to see it referred to that way but it's just a fact. The second Super Bowl in which he was the head coach had about the same number of Cowher's players, but the Steelers came out flat in that game if you'll remember and fell behind before mounting a bit of a comeback. Unfortunately, another criticism that Tomlin has received, rightly or wrongly, has been that his teams do tend to come out flat at times and seem unprepared.

I think criticism comes with the territory. Fans are going to criticize, the media is going to criticize, and you are going to be critiqued constantly by your own organization and your peers, though not as publicly. I think we all understand that. The question at this point is what will Tomlin's coaching legacy be? Will he be lumped in the same category as the George Seiferts of the world or will he establish his own reputation as a great head coach by getting the B&G ship turned around after a season of disappointing results?

 

Why worry about what his legacy will be at this point in time? He has arguably a very long career ahead of him and a lot of time to define his legacy.

And i'd say that to a lot of people he HAS already established his own reputation as a great coach...with the obvious exceptions of a few around here.

 

I can see the comparison with Seifert, but at the same time, I really don't get these arguments about Tomlin winning with Cowher's players.

Was he meant to get rid of them all? Was he meant to not win? Does the superbowl not count in some way? I could perhaps understand if Tomlin stood up and said: "yep, it was all down to me and nobody else, I am the greatest HC of all time..." But I'm pretty sure he didn't.

I wonder if we're trying to give Tomlin a "grade" as a HC, in strict comparison to two coaches (Noll and Cowher) who had decades of experience (and, it seems, Siefert). What matters at the moment is this: have the problem areas from last season been identified? Are they being addressed in the best way possible? I'll leave the discussions of whether Tomlin is a great HC to when he's retired.

 

As Coach T would say, I think there's enough "on tape" to at least argue that he is not a "great coach" at this point in his career. Could he be considered a great coach at the end of the day? We shall see.

 

Your criteria for what it means to be considered a great coach may not be, and probably isn't, the same for others...

 

In the short-term, that worked out well, obviously. But was the decision to keep a staff intact out of desire, necessity, or lack of clear vision? I fear the latter.

There is terrific line in the Scorcese movie CASINO, when Robert DeNiro is talked into operating the Tangiers in las Vegas. He says, "If I am going to do this, I am going to do it my way." Take charge kind of people are always respected. They might not be liked all the time, but they are respected. I'm afraid that Tomlin's reluctance to do things "his way" or "any way" for that matter has had consequences in the long run. The team is undisciplined, unprepared, unconditioned. So even when he says he'll crack the whip, going to "unleash hell," going to make the "standard the standard," the players respond with the same uninspiring play as before. There's a reason for that. There doesn't appear to be a vision. I think Tomlin has an idea of what he wants his football team to be, but unlike Cowher, he appears unwilling to make the coaching and personnel moves to accomplish it. He has kept LeBeau on staff too long (debate that all you want LOL) while not implementing a Tampa-2 system that he knows and has coached in. Soem may see this as a strength; I see it as a weakness.

So, you're darn right: we will now see what kind of coach Tomlin really is this upcoming season.

 

I'm not sure I get the whole "Cowher's guys" thing. First of all, I think considering he won the Super Bowl in his second season, 12 out of 22 players is a lot of turnover, isn't it? That's basically half. That means half the team was different than it had been just two years earlier. That seems like a lot to me, for only two years. That's fewer "Cowher guys" than I would have guessed. Second of all, aren't we giving both guys too much credit/blame for the players? Neither of them is GM, and neither has that kind of control like some coaches around the league. They both were a part of the process, but they were also both second banana to Kevin Colbert, as well as the Rooneys.

Tomlin has made some mistakes, but let's not forget how many Cowher made. He really screwed up this team big time, more than once. But he was still a great coach.

 

Your example, again, strengthens my argument that it has as much (more?) to do with personnell as anything else.

We came out flat in XIV, too. Needed to "mount a bit of a comeback" to beat the Rams. We probably praised Noll for making adjustments at halftime. Here, Tomlin receives a bit of criticism for us "com(ing) out flat" in XLIII (and XLV).

Our core of studs from the 70s were finishing up their careers. That led to an unimpressive 80's more than anything else. You just can't replace that many players at all once. Not players of that caliber.

That's the task that Tomlin is facing now. He has inherited a great group of players in their twilight and we're asking him to get them to produce like Pro Bowlers because they have 'Polamalu' 'Hampton' and 'Harrison' on the back of their jerseys. These guys aren't just on the roster and old, they're on our roster and HURT!

He has been here for 6 years and we (HE) have drafted some franchise players: Maurkice Pouncey, LaMarr Woodley, Lawrence Timmons, Mike Wallace . . . some players may be on their way to being studs (Decastro? K Lewis? Heyward? Hood? . . . time will tell). We can't reload overnight.

I commend Tomlin for what he has accomplished at this point.

 

I laugh at people who suggest Tomlin is a 'poor leader' because he maintained the status quo and allowed the staff/personnell to remain intact. What the hell was he supposed to do?! Come in swinging his dick like Todd Haley and tell a bunch of veterans and the most established defensive coordinator in the NFL, "It's my way or the highway!! I don't care that we just won a Super Bowl two years ago, everybody loves our 3-4 zone blitzing scheme, and we've got a handful of players well on their way to Canton . . . there's gonna be some changes!! Lebau . . . gone!! 3-4?! F.U.! 4-3!! We're opening up the quarterback competition at Latrobe this Summer. Nobody is safe!!"

Maintaining the status quo on a team that had been extremely successful for nearly 15 years straight prior to him taking the helm displayed a "Lack of clear vision"?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Really?!?! Give . . . me . . . a . . . break!

"Take charge kind of people are always respected." #jerryjones #danielsnyder #adolfhitler #timothymcveigh #mightwannapullinthereinsonquoteslikethis.
The highest level of maturity in leadership is to be INTERDEPENDENT (leads AND works well with others), not INDEPENDENT. You want a democracy, not a dictatorship.

Speaking of leadership, maybe you're asking questions about the wrong leader . . . Tomlin doesn't own the team. How much of a leash is he being held back with? How many decisions is he really free to make? We saw, just last year, our team President kick in the door to the coaching office, grab a marker, start diagraming running plays on the whiteboard while, in the same motion, congratulating a stunned Bruce Arians on his "retirement." You might want to look at the office of Tomlin's boss if you're concerned about what decisions are or aren't being made to your satisfaction.

Mike Tomlin is a damn good football coach. I'm more interested to see how Art Rooney II and Kevin Colbert behave in the next few years. As I mentioned previously, I don't think it's any accident Dan Rooney jumped on a red-eye from Dublin last month and abandoned his ambassadorship.

 

The very best decision he made was keeping the 3-4 and DL's system. Had he changed it up to what he knew in Minnesota (like so many people assumed he would and wanted him to), I don't think there's any way in hell we make it to any Super Bowls, let alone two. It would have been "fixing" what wasn't broken, despite our 7-9 record the year before. It doesn't seem like a great coaching move because in a way it's like he didn't do anything, but what he did was the opposite of what most coaches would have done, and that move won us a Super Bowl.

I have my issues with Tomlin. There are areas he has messed up. But when I look at what they are (botching the fullback situation, Limas Sweed, clock management), they seem like pretty small potatoes.

 

Tomlin did not inherit a team like the Browns, or Cardinals, which is associated with losing teams. He inherited a strong core of guys who were coming off a down season but were talented enough to win super bowls right off the beginning of his tenure. He landed the best coaching job to come available in years. Yes he won with Bill Cowher's players, but every new head coach inherits somebody else's players, John Gruden won it all in Tampa Bay with Tony Dungy's players. To me this is where Tomlin gets his famous "The standard is the standard" quote. He came into Pittsburgh and implanted that in the guys. He walked in and basically said Cowher is gone and I'm here now. The standard will be the standard, just as it was under BC. And now we are in a progression to where we are seeing Cowher's guys walk, and Tomlin's guys come in. But either way, Mike Tomlin won the superbowl in 08-09. Not Cowher.

 

This is exactly what I was gonna say. I was gonna say "do we make the mistake of calling it the cowher era when you could really make a case that it's the colbert era?" I mean look at the players that were key in the win in 08. I think of them as Colbert people and even Tomlin people really. Remember wasn't it really Tomlin that REALLY pushed James Harrison to the forefront? I mean wasn't he cut by Cowher? Was Holmes a Cowher pick or Colbert pick? Woodley never played for Cowher and neither did Timmons. Heath only did for two years. Whose pick was he? I'm almost more interested in what's going to happen if we have another sub-par season to find out if maybe Colbert doesn't get the ax. I mean we've not exactly been killing it in the draft as of late. I think last year's draft was the most we've been excited in forever but now we've lost some of those guys already.

 

Actually weren't we 8-8 in Cowher's last year and 10-6 in Tomlin's first year?

 

Yeah, mighta been 8-8. I considered that but was too lazy to look it up. I know it ended with Santonio knocking the Bengals out of the playoffs. Suckers!

 

I am afraid MT is in for a rude awakening. Unless
they draft well the next two years. The Rooney's maybe looking for a new
coach in the very near future. I think he is OVER his head.

 

Over his head? How?

The last I checked, the Steelers have had only 3 coaches in over 40 years.

Isn't going to suck for some to see Coach Tomlin here for the long term.

Cowher had his down years. Even the imortal Chuck Noll had down years.

Mike Tomlin will be the coach of the Pittsburgh Steelers for the long term. Good years. Bad years.

Stability in their head coach. Not the flavor of the month. That's how they operate.

And this Steeler fan, for over 40 years, is quite glad they operate that way...

 

I love it. the debates crack me up. coach tomlin is one of the most respected coaches in the nfl not only by his peers but by the players. you never hear anything bad about him. in my opinion there isnt a coach in the nfl who has had to deal with the injuries over the past two seasons that he has. still over that period we have a winning record and a playoff apperance. sure we want more but what fan base doesnt. I know pats fans who are now saying belicheat cant win the big game. bottom line is the head coach is only a part. i think they get to much credit when a team wins. maybe to much blame when they lose. I mean we all remember the good about cowher but the truth is he had some bad years and some underacheiving years. quite a few if i remember right. but we remember the super bowl. a game where the team played horrible but won. so he gets credit. tomlins team plays and wins the super bowl and he is critized for having cowhers players.lol I dont know a coach who starts from scratch. as far as the siefert comparisions go. I will take em. the man won alot of ballgames. I think not sure but is he not a hall of famer? he had great players sure but the list of coaches who had great players and lost is long as well. novr turner anyone

 

No he is not a Hall of Famer. They say that he would have been one but when he went to Carolina he was horrible and a lot of people claim that's why he's not in the Hall of Fame. I have honestly wondered if that's why Cowher is waiting to come back and coach because as of right now he is a Hall of Fame worthy coach. But if he came back and done a horrible job it could keep him from getting in. It was even said this year that Parcells took such a long time to get in because they never seemed to know when he was truly done. But I suppose I would rather Tomlin be like Seifert than Switzer. Wouldn't you say that Switzer was REALLY the guy that won with other people's players?

 

Yep! I was at the game. It went in to ot and on the VERY FIRST PLAY Ben hit Holmes across the middle for about a 65yd td. It was Cowher and Joey Porters last game with the Steelers. Another great play that sticks out in my was was Deshea absolutely WRECKING Housh. He had to be helped off the field and I kept my eye on him and I don't even think HE knew where he was!

 

One of the problems with message boards is that they are difficult places to discuss the nuances of a situation. My opinions on Tomlin and the Steelers are full of nuances and seeming contradictions, so I am sorry that the post offended you. I like Tomlin. I root for him. As I stated in that post, the decision to keep LeBeau was GOOD in the short-term. But it may not be good in the long-term. At what point in time does Tomlin start to "shape" this team into the one that fits HIM? because I am starting to sense that the team is not responding to him anymore and that there is no sense of direction or identity on this football team. With Noll and Cowher, there was always an identity, for better or worse. For the past 5-6 years, there really hasn't been. I really wonder if the lack of identity, leadership, and discipline is a reflection of the head coach. When I posted the CASINO quote, it wasn't to suggest a "my way or the highway" mentality; it was meant to suggest that someone who is in control and has a direction and a philosophy in mind, garners respect. With Tomlin, and the way the draft has gone, and the way the team has played DOWN to opponents, and has been awful in TO ratio, I get a sense that the team is just like that carnival cruise ship: drifting along, without any direction. I COULD BE WRONG. I HOPE I'M WRONG. But that's my sense of things. Then again, maybe Tomlin is a great coach whom Colbert has saddled with crap players. Mayeb Tomlin is getting more from these guys than we know? Here come the nuances again. I'll stop here.

 

Ha! Now that I don't remember. Would love to see that.

 

The things you blame Tomlin for are puzzling to me . . .

Turnover ratio? You really put turnovers on the head coach of a professional football team? If any coach gets the blame on turnovers it's the coordinators. Producing a scheme that either creates or avoids them.

We "play DOWN to opponents?" Heck, people in every fan base probably complain about that with their own teams. There are upsets and close calls every week. It's the NFL. There is a lot of parity.

I'll reiterate that perhaps the reason Tomlin hasn't put his own stamp on this team is because he doesn't have the freedom to do so. There might be a directive from the controlling Rooney II that Lebau isn't going anywhere. We know what happened with the OC. We don't know how much input Tomlin has on draft day. Your concerns might be more appropriately directed towards the top of this organization. But all either of us can do is speculate about what is really happening internally.

You're right. Maybe Tomlin is getting the most out of this team. I'll again point out the backbone of our defense has either just retired (Farrior, Aaron Smith), is hurt (Harrison, Polamalu), or in their twilight (Hampton, Keisel). That's over half of our defense right there. And we managed to put up the #1 defense again(statistically -- we all know this defense is FAR from dominant). The biggest challenge our team faced last season was on the offensive side of the ball. An inept offense being ran by a guy Tomlin, by all accounts, didn't want as we watched 'his guy' go to Indianapolis and be the friggin' NFL Coach of the Year while our players stood around bad-mouthing our current OC.

Again, I'm more concerned about the leadership at the top of this organization at the moment than a capable head coach who puts a hat on every sunday, sets the standard, and unleashes hell.

 

Out of curiosity, DS, what do you think Tomlin should be blamed for? I agree that many times the head coach gets way too much credit when things are going well and way too much blame when things are in the tank, but that's just the nature of the biz. Do we blame Tomlin for the team coming out flat more often than they should? Do we blame Tomlin for losing to inferior competition at critical times in the season? Do we blame Tomlin for the way he handled the running backs by committee approach this year? Do we blame Tomlin for not going for two when they had an opportunity to pull within two scores in the San Diego game and then his acenine excuse afterward when he said he didn't want to put his two point plays on tape for other teams to see? Do we blame Tomlin for poor clock management? Do we blame Tomlin for seemingly failing to make in-game adjustments? Do we blame Tomlin for sending his kicker with the 50 yard leg out to kick a 54 yard field goal knowing that if he misses you've shortened the field significantly allowing the other team to essentially get a first down and kick a field goal for the win?

I understand that some of these things may have been out of Tomlin's control. But the HEAD COACH is the HEAD COACH for a reason. He is the overseer of the team. It is ultimately his responsibility as to how the team performs. Does much of the blame lie with the coordinators and assistant coaches. Yes! But it is clearly the head coach's responsibility to make sure the team is functioning as a cohesive and efficient unit. Tomlin even seems to have problems being able to dismiss an assistant coach whose unit is grossly underperforming. It was his plan to keep Amos Jones in 2013. THAT would have been a travesty given that the special teams unit that we all saw this year was probably one of the worst that we can remember seeing in a long time.

So I come back to this question. What is Mike Tomlin responsible for? What should Mike Tomlin be held accountable for? I have some legitimate concerns at this point about his indecisiveness, his judgement, his ability to oversee the coaching of the Xs and Os, his seeming willingness to accept mediocrity, his ability to have the team prepared and his inconsistency.

I'm not anti-Mike Tomlin by any stretch. I'm willing to wait this thing out (like I have a choice - lol) over the next couple of seasons to see what happens. But I truly believe that Mike Tomlin is at a crossroads at this point. No matter what happens I think that, given the fact that he was at the helm during the Steelers last two Super Bowl runs, he is considered a good coach. No argument here. The question that I and many others are asking is when his legacy is fully formed and defined, will he be considered a GREAT coach? That question will be answered in short order.